PLEX is very expensive right now thread

Seriously though.

What is the panels view on more ingame PLEX rewards?

It seems to me, there is no other way to curb the ever rising PLEX price, which though market determined, may indeed be pricing people out of the game as compared to previous years.

Ideally, this PLEX would he rewarded only in small amounts and typically in low level content, thus making it a means for newer players to earn isk by selling it, or accumulate it slooowly inorder to one day PLEX their account themselves.

As long as the rate of PLEX introduction through such rewards is small per instance, it wont concern or interest established players whom can earn more in other activities, but it would create a groundswell of new PLEX introduction to the market overall without any of the players farming them being able to ever accumulate a full 500 in any given month.

I think this may increasingly be a necessary adaptation, as PLEX rises higher and faster than ever before.

That is fine as your own subjective valuation, but others might have a higher valuation. There is no “right” or “just” price for anything really.

This does not exist, IMO. Value in reference to a commodity or service is subjective. You might hate laphroaig single malt while I love it. You wouldn’t spend any amount of money on it whereas I happily buy it at say, $40/bottle. What is the “true” price here? I would argue it does not exist outside the of individual.

Again…this is subjective, and if we opened this up to competitive bidding…that price could go quite high.

Which is why we are at an impasse. I do not think that “value” exists as an objective number.

It is hard to know because different people value the same thing differently.

It isn’t an issue of “leveling” with you, but a yawning philosophical chasm between our two positions.

Teckos am I confused but I think you can explain,

isn’t the really important point how much isk the plex buyer thinks their dollars/euros whatever are worth

it doesn’t matter if in game plex buyers think their sub is worth 650 mil, if no one wants to buy a plex that is only worth that much in game? Its no good having top buy order if there are no sellers.

The plex buyer in rl has the supply, and not the demand in game, but the price has to be good for them or CCP wont have any demand for plex sales out of game. CCP might then reduce the rl cost (not necessarily good for the game) to keep supply up,

but wouldn’t that lack of supply in game drive the price back up?

Doesn’t the market set the price, and the price as it is must be what people are willing to pay?

Or am I wrong.

As I said before, but bears repeating, there is no way to stem the increasing price of PLEX ingame, except by introducing more PLEX.

Demand is clearly far outstripping supply.

This ofc is good for:
-CCP, as it encourages PLEX purchase.
-For PLEX magnates, whose stockpiles have multiplied in value.

BUT

There is the concern of how to retain isk and/or IRL poor players whom provide content/population in EVE.

Im concerned that what is happening with PLEX prices is equivalent to eating the goose that lays the golden eggs (ie:PLEX).

How high can it go? 4bil? 10bil?

At some point, paradoxically, PLEX will no longer be a means to sub anymore, nor a means to earn isk, as only very few can afford it. This breaks the system.

Id argue that when it plateaus and starts to decline, its already too late.

Well…IMO, no.

In my view, markets don’t do anything. People do things. We use the market as a short hand for people interacting. To say the market does something is to take a process that is unguided and complex and give it human like attributes. That it thinks, decides and chooses, but it does not, the market process is the result of people thinking, deciding and choosing. Further much of this is based off of individual subjective valuations. When viewed from this light there is “right” price. In fact, in game there is no “market price”. What is often reported as the “market price” is the median price of all the PLEX that were bought and sold.

So the market is a short hand for people interacting. The in game “market” is actually just a mechanism to facilitate those who want to interact in terms of PLEX coming together. Before that it was the forums. People would buy and sell GTCs on the forums, that is where I got my first infusions of ISK to do stuff to make even more ISK.

The term “the market” is really a short hand for a complex set of interactions. I have come to this conclusion after studying in detail standard neoclassical economics, but also in learning about evolutionary theory and how evolutionary theory in game theory can be applied to economics and also in noting that neoclassical economics is always focused on equilibrium. But how do we get to equilibrium is an important question. And do we ever get there? For the last question I say, “No.” What happens in equilibrium? Nothing. Supply exactly equals demand. In the case of PLEX if we ever wound up in equilibrium there would be no PLEX being bought or sold. Supply would exactly equal demand…nothing more to do. But we never see that, so we never get there. So out of equilibrium dynamics should be more important…but neoclassical economics does very little in that area.

Now, that being said, you discussion of the dynamics here I largely agree with. For example,

I take it you mean, if I am willing to pay no more than 650 million ISK for my game time, that is irrelevant if nobody wants to sell to me at that price in game. I agree. If at that price nobody see’s it as worth while to buy PLEX then there will be no PLEX to be bought.

Again, I pretty much agree. People often think that CCP should do something to get PLEX prices back down to X ISK. My view is that while the sentiment is nice, bringing back players who can no longer afford to sub, the mechanism to achieve this is never explained.

Aaron has at least suggested a mechanism, but I am not at all convinced we’ll go back to some low PLEX price. The primary reason for this is that the old price of say 500 million for 30 days of game time was the result of the market process at that time. The order that market process produced was, in large part, defined as it came about. That is, it was not pre-defined by anyone. As such, we cannot pre-define an outcome today either. His idea might result in a lower price, but probably not much lower. Or who knows no change at all, or even a higher price.

Something like 5 PLEX per completion as a reward for what, at low level content, is a result of say 15mins of effort (plus transit time and finding time) would result in 15mil current resale value.

Thats a significant income to a new player, but less than what any more established player can earn in the same time period (also allowing for opportunity cost) doing something else.

Thus new players, or older, depending on circumstances, in conjunction with what Alphas are now and will be, can provide a population/PLEX symbiosis that helps mitigate PLEX price growth via lack of supply.

Few, if any, players will be able to earn a full 500 PLEX from such rewards in the period of one month, thus not jeopardizing CCPs income from subs. But, these players sales of PLEX to the market to fund their Alpha activities will not only help retain them ingame, but also rationally dull the edge of PLEX price rise as a factor of how many Alphas are introducing PLEX to the market.

Result is a homeostasis between Alphas and Omegas, between purchased PLEX and earned PLEX.

So if the market is just a bunch of people either standing in a room shouting out orders and writing them on bits of paper, or using terminals, or an in game interface like in eve, then we can say ‘the market sets the price’ but this is short hand for the actors in the market all acting in their own interests but together determining the ‘value’ of a product, which is not the value to one of these actors, or an average of the value of the product to each of these actors, but a contacentation of all their different motives strategies and dare I say it desires at play in the market, which gives the illusion of a single mind and purpose behind the market hence, the market decides?

Do you think that it was a lot easier to get a plex in 2009? When I last played. Because back then I felt I would have had to grind LOADS as a casualmplayer in high sec or grind a fair bit in null, and that plex wasn’t really an option to me as a more casual player. Now it seems like I could do a different enjoyable activity every time I played and make enough to plex just playing an hour or two a day and not every day? Or am I just trading, and taking others tales of the isk/hour they make too literally? I do know I sold 2 vagabonds for 1bil and that means those vagabonds cost over £10 if someone bought a plex to fund them. That seems like plex is not that expensive in game, if that is all the isk a person can get for a fair chunk of money.

That’s 60m/hours. Why wouldn’t I farm that if ti was available to be done in ship available to alpha while blowing through the content with my Omega advantage?

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Yes.

It is hard to say precisely. I might say it is easier, but that could be based on my preferences and not yours. Another reason I am reticent to respond to Aaron that the “true” price of PLEX is X. That statement might be true for me, but not for you. For example, if you make 50-60 million ISK an hour and you play 15 days a week for 2 hours or so, and you really like what you are doing…hey, great, yeah you can PLEX and have a bit left over.

I don’t make 50-60 mil an hour! I can plex two accounts if I want (ooo look at him) and have spare, but I get that I had 1.6bil to start with and true new players don’t, and I also recognise that I can feck up and loose loads if I get greedy- but I suppose ratters get ganked don’t they…

but if the average new player can do exploration and make 50 mil an hour, and plex their account playing 30 hours, that’s a grind and I would recommend they don’t get bogged down with it, but they can- and that a brand new free account with minimal training-

so regardless of what we all think we would pay that is a kind of ‘floor’ we can say, if a new unskilled player can grind one in 30 hoursor even 50 hours, how can it be too expensive, regardless of what you or I can earn or would pay.

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To me it seems that you’re rigid in your approach. You speak as if there was never a value on game time alone when there blatantly was for a very long time. From what I saw those were happy times, We had a pcu of over 50k and game time sales stayed at a reasonable price and plenty of people purchased it. I could link lots of threads where pilots have said they are leaving due to game time being sold incorrectly for isk.

I just hope that CCP don’t have your attitude towards this and they will one day go back to an isk for game time offer that suits the buyer and seller. You seem so caught up in what plex is now, I know you were there when plex first came out, how comes you can’t think back to these times and compare the difference.

What is your opinion on how things were when pure game time could be purchased for isk? May I have an honest answer that reflects exactly how things were around those times please? thanks.

I can remember, and I can remember it being more expensive than it is now, in terms of the time it takes to earn it and all of the new ways of making isk in the game.

FFS I was getting 35million for one 15 minute plex in FW, in a 10mil atron. Even taking fights and losing ships I made 100 to 150mil in a night easy. And that’s losing every fight I took and

So do FW 5 nights a week for a month, make 2-3 bil, plex, spend 500mil to 1.5bil on tech one ships and pirate frigs. FOR A ONE MONTH OLD PLAYER.

That there was a stable price does not tell us that that is the true price. There is just no such thing. Thomas Aquinas tried to argue this a few centuries ago and it has largely been shown to just not be true.

I find your view truly amazing. On the one hand you take the price that the market process produces, say 500 million ISK and that is “the right price”, but the market process now produces a price of 1.5 billion for 30 days of game time and that is now “totally wrong”.

I know what it was like, and I know there were complaints back then as PLEX prices started to rise. There were many threads complaining about the price rising before dual training, before skins, before character transfer, etc. How do you explain this?

Further, you have assumed that PLEX was used by people who could not pay for a sub for a variety reasons, but I have not seen any reason to believe this. It almost surely happened, but the question is how many of the PLEX users were in this situation.

The price was rising back then too. You can find threads complaining about the rising PLEX prices back as early as late 2010.

The price is wrong due to the fact you’re paying for other services and not only game time. You don’t want to acknowledge that plex has too many uses which will be reflected in the isk cost.

“the right price” can only be whatever a buyer and seller determine for the product of pure game time. Yes CCP decided to add more uses to a plex, it is their decision to make obviously, but I dont have to like it.

Funny, I too find your view amazing. Why is it wrong to have a theoretical convo about how much a 30 day gtc will cost today? I accept pure game time codes are not sold anymore which I think is a big mistake. Do you honestly believe that the plex has been presented in the right way? Is it wise to have so many services crammed into one plex?

I notice you’re very good at deflecting Teckos, you never really give solid well informed answers which are your own. I’m asking for your view! all you did really was tell me that there was complaints. This is what I mean when I ask folks to level with me.

CCP should also consider that they have a great game here…one of a kind in fact. The fact that people even want to grind ingame currency for their sub is actually really cool. This is a very unique selling point which must be pushed to the absolute extreme in order to gain a higher concurrent login number. The bottom line is this; we know what people are not prepared to pay for pure game time and that is the current isk price. Feel free to argue with that fact all you want, It wont change the fact that something has gone wrong and people have left the game for that reason. It’s your game CCP try something new with game time and isk and see how it goes.

That does not make the price wrong, just different.

No, back up stream I pretty much described how that would work, so this isn’t true.

Yes, and when you increase the number of buyers the price goes up.

Depends, if CCP is seeing its revenues and thus profits go up as a result, I’m fine with it (keep in mind I’m a PLEX buyer in game). I’d rather CCP do this if it help keeps the game up and running.

Again, we have a philosophical difference here. I do not believe there is a price that is “right” or “correct” or “just”. I have stated my view on value, that it is largely subjective and as such we cannot say if one price is right or wrong. In fact, I’ll go even further, that when there is a catastrophe and prices for various goods go up, there is actually a benefit to that. If you have a time during your commute, are out walking, etc. you can listen to this.

Uhhh…no. This can be done quite easily by simply changing the OOG price of PLEX. Sell them for $5. Then the IG price will drop, probably alot. Problem is people will stop subbing and switch over to PLEX and CCP will see their revenues and profits go down. Possibly even leading to CCP shutting down.

PLEX is actually a more expensive way to pay for a sub, generally speaking. It is not cheaper. For those who cannot pay except via PLEX it is unfortunate that the price has gone up over time, but I’m not at all convinced this is the primary source of the decline in PCU.

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The amount of PLEX and time to completion was just an example.
Sure, you could shave time off running it in an Omega.
Your choice.

The primary onus of the suggestion is to introduce more PLEX into the game, internally.
Alphas could run them to finance themselves through sale, and ofc Omegas can run them as well, should they choose to do so.

I think CCP would only want Plex introduced to the economy by people paying RL cash for it. When you buy Plex from market it means CCP has earned money. If your suggestion was implemented then lots of people would do these tasks to get Plex reward and CCP would lose money.

Isk is enough of a reward for tasks which can be used to purchase Plex that someone has paid RL cash for.

When a Plex is purchased for isk, CCP get paid, the seller gets isk, and the buyer gets Plex. It is a good business model, the first of its kind for a game universe.

Well, if more PLEX isnt introduced, the PLEX price will continue to rocket upwards.

I imagine now CCP economists sitting on their hands, waiting for a miracle to happen and their CV being accepted in some other company. Sorry.

Looks to me like we will not see a rise of amount of PLEX introduced to the game with these prices being so high. I think it can go even lower. Just buy lesser amount of PLEX from CCP, like 1/3 of what you used to buy. Selling it is bringing a lot more ISK than before. Who uses plex for other things will also remove it from the market, making it even scarcier. Just accept it will lose nearly all the former PLEX appeal of a game time, especially with these alpha changes. It will turn into aurum that would be used for microtransactions like aurum was used, bought scarcily, used scarcily, fluctuating and being a good speculation item. I think CCP economists know that but microtransaction managers block them to make any changes, in hope people will buy more PLEX when its priced higher in ISK.

Well at least you can acknowledge there is a problem. Many of the posters here think the Plex price is acceptable and absolutely nothing can be done about it. I’m sure at this point only a few players buy it for game time purposes.

Bringing more Plex to the game won’t solve anything IMO, we will just end up with more sellers decreasing their plex price by 0.01 isk in order to get the first sale out of very few sales. The Plex sellers want top isk.

I feel that CCP are pushing skins and apparel sales very hard I don’t feel there are many sales on skins due to it being a vanity item which players purchase to look cool.

I’ve had a good think about this and the only real solution seems to be going back to selling gtc’s which I believe will have a lower isk value than the current plex due to the gtc having just 1 feature which is game time.