Yeah, I do agree in general. That being said, there is some precedence for it (like massively reducing torp launcher requirements on bombers), so it seemed like it was something that was doable from a coding perspective, and would fix the issue without too much fuss.
Seems to me that any action in a wormhole should involve some risk, I don’t see why rolling a hole shut should be any different ?
Here’s a list of questions that I think would help illustrate your point better (if you’ve already answered these elsewhere, Please link it)
- How much of an impact does the existence of the lurch hic have on Eve as a whole?
- Why is a fix to the lurch hic bug an urgent issue?
- Are there specific battles/conflicts where the lurch hic has substantially changed the outcome?
- Are there specific groups that exploit this bug to an excessive degree? What impact has that made on the game for other players?
- Are there existing in-game counters to a lurch hic?
- Is there a reason why CCP can’t implement an explicit fitting restriction against the 500MN MWD on HICs?
Im really curious to see your answer to number 6. I’ve seen it asked in various forms in this thread, and you haven’t answered it in any way other than “that’s a weird restriction for a ship of that size/class/type” combined with something like “HICs were never meant for rolling holes”, both of which do not answer the question in a reasonable way.
I’d argue HICs were never meant to fly at 8km/s with Perfect agility, but the rules allow for it so people are doing it. The only difference is one of these unintended uses creates lopsided PVP engagements while the other serves a PVWormhole logistical role that is now considered vital to daily gameplay by those that reside in wormholes. I agree with you, the lurch hic needs to go, but without defining a valid justification against an explicit hull restriction precluding use of the 500mn MWD (the mod that is unique to the bug you intend to remove), you wont be taken seriously.
If you can’t provide the answer because CCP has instructed you not to, then fine. Tell us you can’t discuss that option. Don’t try and dodge the question. Don’t try and transition to some esoteric argumentation about intent.
The simplest solution to the bug you want to eliminate is a hull restriction against the 500MN MWD on the 4 HIC hulls. Engage with that request. If you’ve asked and were told no, that’s Ok, but the animosity is because you appear to be ignoring the objectively simpler, more direct and precise proposed solution for some reason and you haven’t made it clear why.
Are you ignoring this suggestion because CCP has specifically said said “no”, are you ignoring this suggestion because it could be a legitimate alternative that may compete with the fix CCP currently has scheduled to release in October - this delaying the lurch hic bug resolution, or are you ignoring this suggestion because you have some ulterior motives behind keeping the 500MN HIC available while eliminating the lurch HIC specifically?
This is the discussion that you need to have, not some argument about “I’m trying to find a quick change that can kind of work because I’m on your side” - I’d rather not have a hackey second-hand clunky alternative like a porpoise hole roller because that’s what would stand until the game shuts down. I’d rather that CCP leverage the solution that has no impact on PvWormhole HIC usage.
So please, if you’re willing to engage in a conversation with someone who isn’t cussing you out, someone who will read what you write and respond thoughtfully and in good faith, I ask that you take a look at my list of questions and answer them. At the very least, please address question 6.
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There still is risk, but not the kind of risk that makes the game better. RNG rolling out of your wormhole makes the player find their way back home. They can’t death clone to their citadel, they can’t look at Dotlan and find an alternative route, they need someone else in their hole to scan down the replacement static, and then they have to go to wherever that connection is. This is an incredible deterrent from living in wormholes, it’s not good gameplay design (the wormhole mass status and collapse timer should be more transparent similar to the way citadel and sov timers are explicit and knowable), and it ultimately benefits no one to have more wormholers rolling themselves out of holes.
Risk is a tool to use that can mediate intra-player interactions and PvE interactions that mirror intra-player interactions (fighting rats, running abyssal dedspace, etc.). PvWormhole is simply bad game design since it so heavily negatively impacts the player who is attempting to create player interactions and the expected value return on each iterative hole roll is so incredibly small, there’s no reasonable way to justify the risk/reward structure in this context of the game.
The only justification for using a 500MN on a HIc is to run the lurch HIC. Without the incidental agility and acceleration bonus resulting from the mass reduction effect of the HIC bubbles, a HIC with a 500MN will be incredibly under-tanked, have no guns, and lack any maneuverability to get under any turret’s tracking.
The argument that “it’s too complicated” is bogus because we already have explicit mod restrictions on hulls (covops cloaks for example). The “it’s not elegant” argument is pointless because the current state is equally (if not more) inelegant due to unintended interactions between hic bubbles and MWDs. The argument that “muh 500MN non-lurch HIC fits” is bogus because there isn’t a single viable 500MN Hic fit that doesn’t abuse the lurch trick.
i.e. 'Working as intended"
BTW, this happened to me yesterday, I misjudged a timer while working out a route to K-space, and couldn’t get back in. I didn’t, however, come bleating to the forums asking for the game to be changed (or, in this case, not changed) - I accepted that I’d taken a gamble and lost, made the long trek back to my HS medical clone system, and waited for someone inside to open a new route. The reason you want this ability is so you can reduce the risk of someone else coming into ‘your’ wormhole and raining on your parade, I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t have to accept some risk to yourself in doing so.
This is an issue with the underlying game theory of null farming. More collective players simultaneously reduces risk from any outside force impacting ISK generating activities and improves the local economy. Since there is literally no downside to having more people in a Corp/alliance/coalition, the only inevitable outcome will be two massive null sov groups.
The ISK production opportunity is better than any scalable low/high sec operations, there is no uncertainty about navigating to/from Home like in wormholes (e.g. see this whole thread), and since local force projection in null is inherently unlimited coupled with the fact that citadels have an unbelievable defensive advantage in the form of instant repairs/reship/refit/clone jump/tether/weapon systems - there is no reason for the largest group of players to not be the most attractive to other players.
In game theory this is what’s called a “win-more” scenario, where the advantaged position provides disproportionately valuable direct or indirect benefits that lead to an inevitability in outcomes.
The Imperium have more players than the rest of the game combined, this is true because of the poor design of the null sec resource harvesting processes from a macro economic perspective.
If there’s any question about non-null sec representation on the CSM, it’s not going to happen, now or any year in the future, until there is some enforced segmentation of seats (untenable proposition IMO), or until the player base dwindles so far that the CSM is mostly irrelevant.
That’s just not true at all. Rolling HICs and their mechanics benefit EVERYONE in wormhole space, not just PvE players. I run one of the larger PvP corps in C5 space and spend a lot of time trying to kill ratters, and I can say this would be a massive blow to everyone who lives in WH space, no matter what they do.
I think Piper explained it very well in his last post, and so I won’t write a wall of text on it, but needless to say there is “good risk” that encourages more interaction and such (usually PvEers risking getting caught for higher rewards, like when dread ratting in wormholes) and “bad risk” that just stifles gameplay for everyone. Imagine if you had a 3% chance of ending up on the other side of new eden every time you jumped a gate. That would help nobody (PvErs and PvPers alike). The great fun from risk in wormholes (the good risk) are things like more difficult PvE, higher chance of getting caught or ganked (no local and no set gates), and no asset safety. Getting rolled out all the time is just bad risk.
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Without outside intervention, even if there is a downside to having more people, ways will be found to circumvent/minimize/overcome those downsides. That’s human nature. It’s why we don’t live in isolated villages, small tribal groups, or city-states anymore.
That was true when the best money in the game was low-sec incursions four years ago when the game was split between the CFC (now Imperium) in the west and N3/PL and their rental empires in the East. It was true 12 years ago when Band of Brothers ruled null. It’s the basic foundation of human society: cooperative efforts yield more results.
We have maybe 15-20,000 players, when you filter for alts. That’s not more than the rest of the game combined. Sorry.
Actually, I know of at least one highsec player who makes his money by SP-farming who’s talking about voting himself onto the CSM next year… by himself, with the number of votes he can produce via SP-farming accounts (since they’re Omegas, they all get votes). The STV system’s far from perfect, but the fact that organization and mobilizing voters wins elections… that’s not a function of game mechanics. Sorry.
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The reason why rolling HICs is important is because wormholers will stop playing eve if they routinely have to spend multiple game hours getting back to where all of their assets are located.
This has an equally important implication for offensively rolling holes to aggress a target. Without rolling hics, you will constantly lose fleet numbers to roll-outs. That’s a player not being able to participate in the hunt, and one less ship to apply dps etc. removing rolling hics is bad for anyone who has a desire to manipulate current wormholes. If your argument is - I’ve messed up before and I didn’t complain - you’re probably just not very knowledgeable about how to manage rolling holes, because currently there is little chance of being collapsed out barring egregious player error.
Further disincentivizing players from living in jspace is not a good change to the game. You can’t make a logically coherent argument that removing the rolling hic is good for the game, good for wormhole residents, or good for non-WH residents that want to roll a hole.
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- There are an incredible variety of game mechanics that can deter the kind of congregation of players we’re seeing. Just because CCP hasn’t implemented any ever doesn’t mean they don’t exist
- Every account gets to vote, and since economic power = more accounts for no real $, that means those with the most isk get the best CSM representation. it’s not a question of how many players there are, but how many total accounts they command
- How could you possibly think that organizing non-aligned voters is more effective than being in a massive coalition with 10k+ votes when the top vote recipient Aryth received 6644 votes in round 1? Sort Dragon, the top representative of the northern coalition received 3767. Do you think GOTG and the north were incapable of voting for sort dragon? Were they confused by the ballot? The reason why there are 5 Imperium members on the CSM this year is because they have substantially more accounts available to vote than anyone else in the game. And btw, your friend may have a lot of accounts, but he doesn’t have 6000 accounts.
If this is genuinely the attitude of CCP/CSM then this is the most encouraging thing in this whole thread. Because “we will fix rollng HICs some time in the future” sounded a lot to a lot of us like the “don’t do anything” option.
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What proportion of the player base are actually affected by Lurch HICs.
I suspect it’s smaller than the proportion that will be impacted by the removal of Rolling HICs.
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Its not a fix… its a (hopefully short term) compromise.
Calling it a fix makes people worry that we will be stuck with this sub-optimal “solution” for an undetermined amount of time.
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The HIC change affect rolling holes and it will make life harder for Wh’s. But don’t think at this only as 1-2 HIC’s. There are very limited mass wh’s out there like Unidentified Wormholes were HIC fleets of 30-40 ppl are a thing.
Only way you can make use of certain wh’s and decent numbers is with HIC’s unique attribute.
So not just a rolling hole tehnique is lost. Alot more is affected to.
Please just fix the oversized propmod problem and don’t touch the unique attributes of HIC’s.
I Dont actually fly HICS but why implement any “solution” unless the “collateral damage” is addressed first, surely CCP can do whatever they need to do to prevent 500MNs being fitted to HICS and then release it as a whole complete solution.
For them to do just half of it with a potential rushed suggestion of a completely different ship that people need to train into is nuts, CCP should do the complete things, there are plenty of other issues that need fixing in eve so my suggestion is to do nothing with it until such time that a complete solution is ready and preventing the module to be fitted to the ship seems to be the right one.
If they can remove nullification from 4 different combat friagtes then surely they can add a module restriction to the HICS
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As a solution to the HIC issue, its been suggested a few times but how about adding a new script for the Warp Disruption Field Generator that replicates the current mass reduction effect but, perhaps, also removes (or vastly reduces the range of) the interdiction bubbles.
Unlike the proposed solution with porpoises there is no additional training required. All that would be required would simply be buying scripts.
Also, additional coding would be minimal as the new script could simply retain already existing effects which will be removed for other scripts and unscripted modules.
As a side note whoever wrote/approved this statement (particularly the parts emphasised in bold) has shown an unconscionable contempt for wormholes that has really got a lot of peoples backs up whatever the proposed “solution” ends up being.
Unfortunately, wormholers will be unwilling collateral damage, as they often are, due to the incredible usefulness of HICs for rolling holes. We may address this with a specific mass manipulation module at some point in the future but want to move forward on fixing this broken behavior as fast as possible.
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could you not just make a rig that lets you fit an overprop but nerfs the ■■■■ out the rest of your fit, like -75% to ship HP and -90% to damage . likie a higgs but just fucks
you even harder
I has to be an activated module because first you activate it to lower your mass, then you return with it innactive and prop mod active to increase your mass.
I’m sorry, but your compromise is complete and utter ■■■■■■■■. You don’t even understand the mechanic you are trying to “compromise” on. You think that it is rarely used and don’t see a point to what we do and why we do it. Or in your own words:
Right now, there's something like a .5% chance to get screwed. With this change, the increase goes up to like
2-3% chance to get screwed. Yes, that's a big increase, but we're talking about the potential to lose one ship
in a month if you're doing it every day for a month as opposed to losing one every two or three months.
My porpoise idea was to get that down to like 1.5%, but that wasn't good enough.
This goes to show you that you have no idea what you are even talking about. HICs are constantly used to role hoes without getting rolled out multiple times a day, if not you will be 100% rolled out. Pulling random “facts” out your ass does absolutely nothing. You would be better off admitting you have no idea what the ■■■■ you are talking about and stop having a hard-on for an issue that has existed for well over a year and actually admit that your null mindset is completely wrong. On top of that, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with losing a ship, and everything to do with losing hours of gameplay just scanning out of chain and getting back into home.
There are plenty of ways to fix this issue without completely destroying one side of the issue. Like making it unable to active both modules at once, but no CSM is so hard for null they don’t ever want to consider that anything matters but themselves.
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