I think complexity adds to the game. It is flavor, adds depth and adds character to a game that makes it feel like a real universe rather than some streamlined game. It enables minmaxing, increases the longevity of the game and allows players to get themselves lost in the game rather than taking one look and already knowing the optimal solution.
Sure, some people prefer the latter, but I like games I can get lost in.
While some people may be put off by complexity, other players get drawn by complexity. I love it.
If you’ve never seen it before, take a look at the Path of Exile skill tree:
Our whole disagreement comes from seeing things just black or white. I never said everything or a whole game needs to be totally simple. I only critizize overcomplexity that adds nothing of value. Complexity should rise, the deeper someone dives into the game, but the most basic stuff that a beginner is facing in his first few hours or days should always be simple and intiuitive. To motivate starters and make the gameplay feel fluid and rewarding, not requiring to compare a thirtillion options only to either overlook or find crap choices had only hold you back.
Thats why your comparisons fail. The PoE Skilltree enables lots of different and viable builds, it is CORE of the games design. It is nessessary to set it apart from linear skilltree competitors like Diablo or others. This is absolutely not comparable to the nonsense EVE is filled with, for simply no reason. And it’s reshapable for the user, multiple times in a run very easily and with currency that is also easily to aquire for a veteran later on. (see: Complexity and difficulty grow with progress).
A better comparison would have been: Does PoE has 9 base versions (not magic or enchanted randomly) of a ‘Dagger’ that you can chose to buy at the vendor, of which 5 are so useless that anyone with a bit of knowledge simply avoids them? I don’t think so.
These other ammo types aren’t useless, they’re just different flavors. They’re still useful and you could do well picking any of them, as they aren’t strictly worse than others.
The only thing I agree with is that they are very similar and perhaps too similar to really matter, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
If you really think that, you deny the reality. Nobody but noobs do use these lenses. Extreme rare exceptions. And they aren’t used by experienced players… well, because those are experienced players and simply know how bad they are. Useless doesn’t mean you cannot fight with them. Yeah sure you can destroy some NPCs with them. You could do better by just picking the other ones. And you only pick them as long as youre too new or to bad to know better. So yea, for me thats the definition of useless.
But that’s the point, these types of ammo aren’t bad. They’re just so similar to other types that you don’t use them. That’s a big difference.
The lack of tiericide of weapons is an issue. There some meta weapons are strictly worse than other meta weapons. That is a problem which tiericide should fix, if it ever happens.
Ammo of a slightly different flavor that is just too similar to another type of ammo for you to consider isn’t necessarily bad. It’s not worse than the other ammo option, it just has slightly more or less range at the cost of slightly less or more damage.
I sometimes hear complaints from people that they find a certain ship, say the Cheetah, useless, because another T2 explorer fits their use case better. Your argument reminds me of that.
It’s just a different flavor, not strictly better or worse but with other characteristics that you currently don’t prefer, but that doesn’t make it bad, or it’s existence bad for the game.
Basically nobody except noobs uses them. Because their stats add no value for any useful scenario.
If you cannot accept that, we can’t debate any longer. I fly laserboats for fifteen years and have seen, used and killed dozens if not hundreds of different laserboat fits. NO ONE uses them, except inexperienced newbros. To their own disadvantage.
You still use single case argumentation. It absolutely doesn’t matter what any single player thinks or believes what the best fit or ship or weapon or ammo is for a certain usecase. When it comes to laser lenses it isn’t the individual players preference, it’s common knowledge that the lenses offer no benefit over the standard ones that are recommended all the time.
I really don’t know why you try to make it look like it would be an individual choice that can or cannot be useful depending on the scenario. It isn’t. If you picked Infrared and missed Multifrequency, you simply made a mistake, due to the lack of knowledge or experience. And you will perform worse, objectively, measureably. To the point that someone tells you “hey mate, scrap Infrared, use Multifrequency!”.
I use microwave quite often. It has longer range than Standard, bigger damage than Radio and uses less cap than Radio.
I use it with Coercers and sometimes Phantasm despite I can use t2 crystals, because t2 crystals lack range. And sometimes I need to kill rats from as far as possible. Either because I have no tank (Coercer) or because when they get closer to me I cannot hit them anymore (Phantasm against webbing frigs from lvl 4 missions). I also don’t have skills to be able to fire from longer than is Microwave optimal anyway (Coercer). I don’t see better option really for these kind of situations. Sure Radio will work too, but has slightly less damage and eats more cap (that can be problem with my Phantasm where I run AB+multispectral shield harderer+guns nonstop).
As I said, absolute niche use for someone without max skills and the same scenario is easily solvable with the Standard Set as well. sigh. Thanks for confirming my argumentation.
Just use Scorch instead of Microwave, it has the same optimal range modifier, but kills almost twice as fast. Which is a lot more efficient even when it comes to capacitor. The cap-bonus of Microwave simply isn’t useful here.
Standard is 20km optimal (with beams). That does not solve my issue. I wan to shoot from as far as possible so they can’t shoot back or so they can’t reach me in time. If I need to be 10km closer to shoot and hit, that is useless. At that range Refuge/Den rats usually shoot back and against lv4l frigates every km counts if there is more than one.
Sure I could use scorch, but not all my toons have t2 energy weapons trained. And scorch is not unlimited either. I am using this to do dailies, either some level 1 mission or Hideaway/Refuge/Den. Using t1 meta beam guns.
But okay, lets say that these crystals are useful only for noobs without skills. That doesn’t mean it is useless. They do have usage and purpose just as t1 mining crystals or t1 ships. That unlimitedness is not negligible trait of t1 energy ammo either…
Yes lets say that. Because its true. And exactly those noobs without skills could simply use Radio or Standard (and move a few seconds/km) to solve this single scenario maybe 5.43% less efficient. Which simply doesn’t matter in the bigger picture. Wouldn’t Microwave and those other useless crystals even exist, nobody came to the idea to suggest adding them “to make the game better”. Because they wouldn’t do that.
And I know exactly what I am talking about, because I use exactly a BeamLaser Coercer for doing Dailies with my JitaTrader (that has only basic gunnery skills) as well (and sometimes the Sisters Arc. Absolutely nothing else than MF, Standard and Radio nessessary at all. On basically any skill level.
Different meta level guns have their use too btw. Well I know about one - ganking. Don’t know what else are they useful for…
In ganking, they help to lower the cost of the ship. Why use t2 guns and pay 1milion per gun when meta 3 for 100k can do the job too? Also some ganking fits doesn’t have cpu/pgu for t2 weapons, so that is where meta4 or 3 do the job.
I am more curious why do we need three different blasters -Ion, Eletron and Neutron or 200mm and 150mm autocanons. I did use other blaster type just once - for an alpha toon without perfect skills using Cormorant as there was not enough pgu or cpu for 7x t2 neutron + all the mods I needed to have fitted. And I used just one gun. And that one gun sucks and has much worse range with same ammo. It is probably a fail fit and meta blaster might work better. Never used 150mm autocannons.
Well I never used Radio so I could just as claim that only Multifrequency, Standard and Microwave are necessary and anything else can be removed. My alts don’t have Long Range Targetting 5 to actually use that range of Radio with beam Coerrcer. Your Jita alt has probably more SP than my ganking alts .
But okay I agree that there doesn’t need to be that many types of ammo. If there were just 3 types we could manage every situation just fine. I think that initial thought was for players to switch ammo more than they do. But it is meaningless, there is basically nothing to gain by loading Microwave instead of Standard if NPCs gets under Radio optimal. Especially because they can usually still be hit decently and because switching ammo is not as swift action as it should be thanks to various bugs or should I say tech issues.
The Electron blaster is a lot easier to fit, I recall. And has better tracking too.
The range of blasters already is atrocious, so using a low-range blaster usually isn’t a good idea unless you’re in a big ship with fitting troubles trying to hit small stuff.
I completely agree meta guns are good for the game.
I just don’t know why we have different tier meta guns, where one meta gun is ‘the best’ choice with best fitting space and highest damage while other meta guns are completely inferior in every possible way but price.
That’s what tiericide is meant to fix and has fixed for pretty much all other meta modules already: multiple meta modules where each meta module has it’s own strengths and weaknesses, rather than tiers.
Idk how my post about projectile ammo devolved into a post about lasers XD
Artillery should be able to select from all four damage types as a primary ammo damage. The rof and tracking are pretty bad and lacking kinetic damage vs Guristas is pretty evident. You would think with Angels at least, the Vargur would stand out, but you would be wrong. The Kronos with railguns beats it. And before anyone says to use AC’s in L4’s, AC’s are overrated, try arties and come back to me. I think arties just need their rof reduced a bit and that would probably help more.
Then read the topic. Your original question was answered and then just some smalltalk about general balance issues occured.
For certain missions the Kronos might be better, for others, the Vargur would be better. It all depends on the mission design and over all missions available, the Vargur and the Kronos are pretty much on par.
And ACs beat Arties any time in L4s. Very rare exceptions. Rails and Blasters on the Kronos are somewhat comparable in performance, a bit depending on the mission. But Rails simply offer more convenience over all.
And yes, I tested them all. Excessively. In hundreds or even thousands of missions.
Railgun Kronos is better than the arti Vargur in 99% of missions. I can’t really think of any missions, but surely there’s something it could possibly edge out the Kronos in. And no, AC’s do not beat arties except for those few missions where everything is close as hell. The damage drop-off of AC’s is pretty steep beyond like 40km. The Kronos has a pretty damn big lead on the Vargur.
While I do agree that damage does fall off, it is still much better damage than arties. I find that rails just have too much range and blasters have not enough for my tastes.
I didn’t compare the Arty Vargur to a Railgun Kronos. Because an Arty Vargur is plain crap for most missions. AC beats Arty by a mile without breaking asweat. Thats why the only reasonable comparison is AC Vargur vs Railgun Kronos. And the winner here depends on the Mission Design.
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