Muninn is not a good example; my statement was in specific reference to ABs. And as I mentioned earlier, T2+ is essential for effective use of the MWD Cloak trick, which is essential for traveling safely through LS/NS and avoiding getting ganked at gate camps.
Just to give numbers to the thread could you gie me a fit (doesn’t have to be yours) that requires it?
keep in mind this is all really without bringing Abyss mods into the picture. This is just an example of a rather “bricked” roll on a compact. It still has less better fitting than a a T2, but has the speed of a deadspace, and cap usage of a cold gas. While it can be argued you can do this with T2 modules and possibly get even better, the roll will have a large chance to further exaggerate the already bad fitting while a compact may just end up being the fitting of a T2.
Do you know how the MWD Cloak trick works? Have you ever used it? The reason I ask is because if you have, then you know you need immense MWD speed to overcome the harsh cloak velocity penalty in order to attain 75% of your maximum velocity to initiate warp by the time the MWD ends its first and only cycle. Empirically speaking, a T2 cloak and T2 MWD has been demonstrated countless times in theory and practice to be the minimum (and cheapest) required to reliably, with a very high degree of success (excluding human error) to initiate and complete the MWD Cloak trick each and every single time, If you want to avoid PVP or gate camps and can’t use covert cloaks, then the MWD Cloak trick allows you to break through on the vast majority of subcapital ships. (It can also decrease the warp time of larger ships, but not down to 10s like it can on smaller ships)
This is a bread and butter technique to survive in LS and NS.
I know how it works, however I’ll admit to having little experience using it. Does every ship in LS\NS use MWD + Camo to travel? I participant in fleets and small gang so I’ve never had the need for it. If the purpose of a T2 mod’s poor fit/cap is to prevent people from wanting to use them outside of enabling that one thing then there is balance. However, i would think that’s not the module’s fit purpose, but rather someone that balancing the modules looking at the +5% speed boost and thinking that’s significant till you realize it’s like 15m/s and doesn’t matter on most everything.
Vets almost always do unless they are employing other means to avoid or mitigate gate camps (scouting, escorts, etc)
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Another factor to consider: Speed greatly reduces incoming damage, and T2 MWDs have smaller sig radii than T1 MWDs, thereby receiving substantially less damage than T1 MWDs (though more than if the MWD weren’t used at all). With regards to diminishing the incoming damage penalty, T2 MWDs are very much worth it.
A quad lif is 450% radius, while a T2 is 500%. The T2 will get you like 18m/s more while the quad lif will cost you 10% less cap usage and around 10% less powergrid. For the mwd trick it may be needed, but it’s a tough sell for T2 comparatively.
You know what? I agree. While the current attributes are not egregiously bad (and some would argue not bad at all), I suppose they could be tweaked a bit to give you more bang for the buck (more buffs or lesser debuffs). Of course, this would be a delicate operation so as to not necessitate tweaks on higher quality modules.
I could live without the tweaks, but I wouldn’t object to them either provided they are subtle.
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Correct to would be a subtle change. The T1 alternates would still be better for their specific function and faction/deadspace are still clearly better. It at least makes T2 feel like an upgrade.
You are not comparing all the figures I’m interested in nor the fitting I’m using.
I’ve got a Capacitor size (after the MWD is fitted) of 3520 GJ. As I said: large battery.
I’m going into places where I need a fast capacitor recharge (that’s twice the recharge rate of your figures) because I’ve an active tank, and I’m going up against ships with neuts on them. Hence the battery.
That battery is the equivalent of four or five Cap Recharger IIs when the neuts are on me.
Really grinding the figures, the Restrained is probably the best alternative - though I gain 1% speed with the T2, but the restrained is slightly less capacitor heavy (it gives me another 1GJ/sec difference) with slightly less sig. But it’s marginal. I can always use the Assault Damage Control while my traversal is low as I close range.
The “less cap per cycle” for the Qaud and the Cold Gas is a complete red-herring. They cost me 25% of the total capacitor pool already, compared to the 20% of the T2 and Restrained. Remember: BATTERY = big capacitor pool => fast recharge. This is about the efficiency of the whole ship not the efficiency of one module. I go from 10 or more GJ/s excess capacitor recharge to 4-5 with your “obvious winners”. I can handle a medium neutraliser on me with reasonable comfort - without loosing my tank, web or prop.
And on a Laser Boat (say a Zealot) that excess recharge is important for the weapons.
I use a battery fitted Zealot as well - not as straightforward as the Sac, but still fun.
And the costs aren’t an issue for me. The Faction Battery gives me another 200 GJ over the Large Battery for less fitting - I can easily fit the T2 MWD - I’ve not got a fitting issue.
So, all in all, T2 works for me in this case. 1% more speed for 1% cost on the ship, and I’ve not had to compromise the fitting to do it.
And ultimately, it’s what and how I want to fly.
And I’ll agree with @Archer_en_Tilavine about it’s value on the MWD/Cloak trick. It makes it more reliable and less prone to pilot error. And you do use it in hi-sec because hi-sec isn’t safe to a hauler (nowhere is safe) and you want to practice it. Of course you wouldn’t use it in a roaming combat fleet - that’s not what the trick is for. If you are hauling then if they can’t see and lock you then you are safer.
If there was a change to the T2, then a drop in the sig bloom from 500% to 475% would be a good start, make it more useful for speed tanking - which requires a modicum of skill to use.
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Well said! Spot on, my friend!
You’re running a Sac, worried abut nuets, need speed, but not caring too much about cost so I’ll take a stab in the dark and say it’s an abyss fit. For the sake of argument we’ll say your fitting is something like this. Again, completely going off a guess and could be completely wrong, but at least this gives numbers to start with.
[Sacrilege, *T3 Abyss]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
50MN Microwarpdrive II
Cap Recharger II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Infiltrator II x5
Now of course without the exact fit I can’t give you the numbers pro\cons but this fit has PG to spare while being 40.7% cap stable with always on. This is a rare situation to say the least as optimized fits will squeak every last drop of fitting they can. Lets look at T2 vs Quad Lif with this fit.
T2 - 1677 m/s, 472 sig, 40.7% cap stable (62.3% off), 3520k GJ
Quad Lif - 1663 m/3, 439 sig 135, 43.4% cap stable (62.3% off) 3520k GJ
In this scenario you are trading 33sig, 2.7% cap stability, and 15PG to “upgrade” to a T2 module for 14 m/s. That isn’t much of an upgrade for something that is 5.2m vs 9k in cost and requires lvl 4 High Speed maneuvering, if it’d be considered an upgrade at all.
Now, since the fit has free fitting to work with goign to a t2 won’t hurt you, but it shouldn’t be a case of “are the downsides not bad enough”. the progression should be T1 -> T1 Meta -> T2 -> Faction -> Deadspace -> Officer. I’d argue that the transition from T1 Meta to T2 propulsion mods is marginal at best and many times is a downgrade.
I am happy with what I am flying.
And given I’m spending 500m on the ship 5m ISK is irrelevant - making a big deal over a 1% saving isn’t really an argument. If 5m worried my then I’d not be flying a half-bil. ship. It’s a minor upgrade and as I said, and you also noted, it might as well be done since I have the fitting space. The signature bloom difference isn’t really relevant when orbiting at speed.
By the way, if your going for an Abyssal fit, a MAAR is a good swap out for Tier 3 Abysses. But again that is a preference thing. And personal preference is really what we are arguing over - fractional differences in performance at that level are irrelevant (much like this conversation!).
As I said, a minor tweak to bloom wouldn’t go amiss, but a “just give it a big capacitor usage boost” is excessive.
If the Sacrilege has one weakness it’s that compared to a lot of HACs she’s quite slow: MWD or no MWD.
Please note that I’m not attacking your preference or play-style at all. I’m jsut pointing out upgrading should be a performance increase worthy of being called an upgrade, not a preference “fractional irrelevant difference”. On a 500m ship 5.8 mill isn’t a big deal, but on a 22m cruiser that is a significant increase in cost. Regardless of cost though it can barely be considered an upgrade, if the fitting considers it one at all.
Also to note, I’d be highly impressed if your orbiting speed actually allowed to you to attain that extra 13m/s. Compared to the benefit of a 7% smaller sig and 2.7% more cap i wouldn’t consider the T2 an upgrade at all.
We run the risk of violently agreeing.
The reduction in Sig. is irrelevant compared to the 50% saving because it’s s HAC. In practice for most uses the T2 isn’t a major upgrade.
But, if we are looking at a cruiser closing on a battleship then the tracking/application from the battleship is a problem with the MWD on (the cruiser gets hit for full damage if the traversal is low) . Turn it off and the cruiser is harder to hit. MWD on gives a cruiser a signature as big as a shield extended battleship.
Even a frigate with a MWD can be hit by a battleship while closing at low traversal. Once you are close and orbiting with the drive off then big guns are not going to do a lot of damage.
This is why I’d suggest a bloom reduction - it’s that “drive on and closing to get under the guns” that is useful. This is where an Assault Ship with its MWD bloom bonus really excels - it provides good help when closing on heavy weapons; especially missile battleships.
Easing the T2 bloom makes it better for repositioning than it currently is. Given I’m familiar with the relatively slow Sacrilege it’s not a great benefit to it, but I’ve flown 50MN Vagabonds and that’s a different beastie - the Sig change would really help.
It’s about the better T2 module suiting using it as a way of moving location at high speed - really cap usage should be high. It should be always on. You use a few cycles to get you where you need to be.
It’s like a shield booster in that respect - it’s intended to be used in bursts not continually.
But with a Large battery on a HAC it’s a full time affair. Good ideas were meant to be screwed with…
It’s the focus on reducing capacitor is wrong, not that they could do with a little tweak.
So now I’m very confused.
- Sig reduction is irrelevant, but sig reduction is what you want changed in T2 module.
- MWDs aren’t meant to be on all the time and should be turned off, but a T2 module is better than a T1 meta even though the T1 actually has benefits compare to a T2 when turned off.
To be clear, I understand premise of an MWD. I understand it’s uses and it’s nuances, the one thing that doesn’t make sense (and the point of the thread) is why a T1 meta is arguably better than a T2 at all of those things. A sig bloom redux on a T2 would be nice, but arguably is of minimal use becasue as you’ve stated it’s not meant to be always on and the difference between 450%, 475%, and 500% is a technicality because you’re going to get hit and hit hard regardless. It wouldn’t be a determining factor of why you choose a T2 over a T1 meta upgrade.
What does lead into that for the majority of ships is speed, capacitor reduction, capacitor usage, and fitting. Cost is subjective to balance, so I try to stay away from that in this case. Powergrid is usually the deciding factor with most ships because 15-30 PG, while on a % of the total seems small, that’s the difference between another module getting upgraded or included or not. When people are trying to squeeze in as much as possible the propulsion mod is typically a no brainer to keep at a T1 meta level.
You wouldn’t auto downgrade a T2 gun to a T1 meta without debating, you wouldn’t auto downgrade a T2 Hardener or Energized Adaptive Nano membrane without debating, you wouldn’t downgrade a T2 Weapon/Drone/Mining upgrade without debating, etc etc but with a prop mod you start with a T1 meta then decide if the T2 is worth sacrificing for which typically it’s not.
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OK. The example with HACs is skewed because of the Sig bloom bonus.
Consider a nice fat cruise missile. The damage it does is related to the speed of the target and it’s size (Sig radius) it’s a battleship weapon designed to hit battleships hard. A faster target takes less damage, a smaller target takes less damage. And a cruiser to a big missile is quite a small target moving at a modest speed.
Then you turn the MWD on. The damage done drops because the target is faster, but goes up because it’s signature has bloomed.
{A handwavy description}.
It’s a balance.
There’s a similar calculation but using angles as well for turret applicability - you can charge hard in against a missile boat, but spiral against guns.
The HAC skews this by being fast but not hugely bigger (bloom bonus) so the damage received is less; this enables them to charge in. They are Assault ships!
So when I say it’s irrelevant - I’m taking about the HAC example.
So, you can make a MWD better by giving it a speed boost - faster=less applied damage, or by reducing the Sig bloom - smaller=less damage. Hand-waving again, a one percent increase in speed is one or two percent off the incoming damage. It depends on the ships base speed.
A small reduction in Sig bloom will reduce applied damage. Were probably only really looking at a total of three or four percent reduction from better speed and a proposed lower Sig for a non-assault ship, but that’s not a bad saving. And that’s worth good money.
Blooming only happens when the MWD is on.
The cap size reduction applies all the time. And that’s a big deal for Amarrian ships. The T2 and restrained are 20% drops, the rest of the T1s are 25%. That’s a hit to recharge as well since recharge time stays the same.
At the moment the Restrained and T2 are probably a bit too close because of the restrained MWD’s lower Sig bloom (T2 faster v Restrained smaller).
The relationship is complex, and I suspect faster armour ships, such as Gallente hulls may benefit more from a T2 MWD than my Amarrian ships which were slow to start with. Likewise, a restrained MWD may aid the issues of Sig size on extended shield ships. And they are already a bit fast!
I’ve a nasty feeling the Sacrilege is a really bad example to talk about.
I’d often consider a gun downgrade for fitting (and other reasons) for example dropping from Heavy Beam II to Focused Beam II is very common on Omens and Zealots. T2 to Meta is rarer as T2 guns benefit from the specialisation skill (going Meta costs me 8% DPS; the base T2 without that skill related boost is almost the same as a Meta 4)- there’s no equivalent iskill n the prop-mod space that favours T2 drives. Perhaps there should be a MWD and AB specialisation skill?
I’d have to have a long play with the damage graphing tool in PYFA to come to any definite conclusions. I suspect the relative merits of T2 and Meta MWDs is highly ship dependant.
I’d normally want to fit a T2 of everything I can, and downgrade on a case by case basis if there’s a size problem. Of course, the “I’m rich” option is to go up to a Faction module to save fitting space to keep the rest as T2 (compromise by upgrade?). Horses for courses.
Webs are another downgrade-able item.
One of the Meta 4 armour modules has identical stats to the T2 (the adaptive I think) so you don’t see them often. There’s a few oddities.
The only ones that is very rare at T2 is warp core stabs, where the advantage realty is minimal.
Correct, HAC skew the debate a bit more so because they typically have a little more wiggle room on fitting thanks to the better resists profile and more slots.
In order to benefit on the T2 MWD’s speed advantage you first and foremost need to be able to maintain a turn speed (or go straight) at top speeds to actually use that +13-18 m/s AND keep the module on enough for that speed tank to be worth it. The explosion velocity and explosion radius go hand in hand with speed and sig size. The sig reduction will be more consistent for damage reduction because the speed will depend on if you are between combat pulses. A ship being able to keep an MWD without sacrificing heavily in some other area is rare, not to mention being able to maintain that speed while orbiting but still keep range for other modules.
If you are taking a MWD for anti turret, the burn in is just to close range or catch the target. After that it’s either kept off or combat toggled. The benefits of a T2 aren’t really going to come into play for that scenario. The extra fitting or extra capacitor are better options.
When talking about downgrading weapons I mean downgrading from a T2 variety to a T1 variety to save of fitting. Though not technically a fair comparison because of T2 ammo. A more apples to apples comparison would be a capacitor battery. A T2 is a clear choice and you may debate on downgrading to a Compact Pb-Acid if fitting got really tight or upgrade to a faction if the isk risk is worth it. Player doesn’t typically put on a Large Compact Pb-Acid then debate on if the 3% drain redux and 195 cap bonus is worth the PG\CPU loss of a Large T2. That debate should happen for T2 prop mods as well, but currently it’s what version of T1 meta is best and if it’s worth it to upgrade to faction/dead space.
caracal with 50mn T2 : 1913.3 m/s, 750m => evasion is 2.55
caracal with 50mn restrained : 1897.4 m/s, 687m => evasion is 2.76
going from T2 to restrained you go from 1 to (2.5511÷2.7619)^0.9 = 0.931 application factor from a cruise missile. you effectively take 6.9% damage less by using a restrained than a T2. And you save cap, pwr.
Your only gain from using T2 is … +0.826 % speed ! yeah totally worth adding 70% of the price of the hull to make it take more damage, use more cap, more pwr !
The mwd is one module where I either meta it, or faction. BTW even the pwr is important. with a SS 500mn I am able to fit 7 1400mn on a mach with only a power diag in the lows !
I think the issue is, the restrained has too much of a reduction in sig bloom. It goes *5.5 while the T2 (and others) go *6(that is 8.3% less), meanwhile speed is *6.1 on T2 and… *6.05 on meta. IMO the restrained should have a *5.9 sigbloom (+490%) instead of the *5.5.
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