Propulsion T2 mods - Adjustment

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1

I’m unsure if re-balance already occurred with propulsion T2 modules, but currently they aren’t very attractive. Almost any fit you see will prefer alternative versions of the T1 module based on ship composition. if the goal is to “go faster” T2 is automatically passed up for deadspace modules because the minor max velocity increase isn’t worth the drawbacks. The two major factors for being overlooked is powegrid and capacitor usage.

Suggestion:

  • Modify T2 Afterburner to have the capacitor usage and powergrid usage of base T1
  • Modify T2 MWD to have the capacitor usage and powergrid of base T1

This will still allow the optimal usages of the T1 variants, the “better” factor of faction modules, and the “clearly the best” of deadspace modules. At least T2 would be an option worth considering.

2

The vast majority of EVE players would disagree with you.

To the contrary: this is intentional. This is to prevent spamming your fit with relatively high grade modules that are also relatively cheap. If you want easier fitting requirements, you need to bump it up to faction or higher. The performance gain isn’t that much (for the lower quality) but the prices skyrocket to account for the easier fittability and cap stability.

It is extremely rare to be able to employ a pure T2 fit without the use of fitting implants that simultaneously exceeds the performance of a mixed T2/Meta fit. Again, this is intentional. With T2 prices being insanely low, this is to prevent being substantially overpowered on the dime, and to prevent T1 Meta modules from being rendered useless.

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3

I can’t say I have ever seen someone post a fitting that includes a T2 propulsion mod. Maybe it’s a Null doctrine thing where drop modules aren’t as accessible? Compacts, Enduring, and Quad Lif are plentiful and dirt cheap in highsec. I’d say 90% of the time a fitting uses compact because it frees up vital space for other modules while the speed increase is inconsequential most of the time.

A T1 alternate module will cost is damn near free while whiel a T2 is 1-2m +. This makes a already extremely difficult sell for the benefits of a T2 a no brainer to go with the T1 alternative. However, I’m trying not to focus on cost, because honestly the speed gain of a T2 isn’t worth the fitting requirements compared to a compact mod.

4

I agree with you that this is true in the vast majority of instances. However, I should point out that the reason why it’s so easy to sacrifice these things is because on such fits speed is not a priority on most fits. Suppose you have a ship that is not primarily combat but slaps on weapons in the high slots - would they use T2? Absolutely not, because it consumes a lot of PG/CPU/Cap in an area that isn’t a priority. There are many instances where the minor increase is, in fact, worth the spike in fitting requirements.

Perfect example: MWD-Cloak trick practically requires a T2 MWD or greater. I’ve attempted it with T1 Meta modules and there is a wide window for failure; if you want cheap and reliable, T2 is the way to go.

5

I’d argue that that and maybe interceptors are really the only use case where every ounce of speed is better than the fitting and cap of the ship. A propulsion mod is a basic included item on every ship. If someone absolutely needs that 1 PG they will of course downgrade to a compact, but the fitting and cap usage is so comparatively high for a T2 that it’s not even a question of which is better to use on the other 95% of the ships in the game.

Reducing the PGand Capacitor will at least make people question if that extra PG\CPU or Cap is worth not upgrading. Right now, it’s not even a question unless you need the extra couple m\s or don’t have the modules readily available.

6

T2 is entry-grade performance: the cost for that performance lies not in the ISK (T2 are a dime a dozen), but in the fitting capability. This is intentional. This is why, relative to cost, T2 is often desirable over Faction+, even if in most instances it is strictly inferior (esp. now that T2 ammo can be used on Faction+ weapons). To prevent people from skipping over T2 into higher end stuff, they had to make T2 comparably accessible ISK-wise and expensive fitting-wise (and in the case of T2 weapons SP-wise as well).

7

I am not disagreeing with your sentiments. Your assessment is spot on, really. I am merely pointing out that there are good reasons for the disproportional fitting requirements and cap consumption relative to both T1 and Faction+.

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8

There-in lies the problem, except for a very small portion of ships potentially. A T1 alternative module is next to free, while a T2 is 1-2m+. You first have to get over the hurdle of if the upgrade to T2 is worth that fitting constraint (the vast majority of time it’s not). At that point in the remaining cases you can spend arguably not too much more to jump to a faction or deadspace. Add into that the abyss module market and you have even less case for T2.

Of course, if you are trying to fit 100 ships for a doctrine this scenario changes, but for all other purposes it holds true.

9

Do you still feel this way with regards to L5 fitting skills and the use of fitting implants, even the low end +1% and +3% for CPU, PG, Cap, etc?

I know I use T2 heavy fits all the time. Never had a problem with it. And I don’t even use those implants (though I have in the past). Occasionally I use a meta module but only to upgrade a sized T2 module.

10

L5 fitting skills and fitting implants let you push a fit to a maximum. Not sure how that falls in to the conversation of using a compact over a T2. I’d venture to say that people aren’t pushing to L5 skills or buying implants to upgrade from a compact afterburner to a T2 afterburner to gain that minor m/3 boost. Rather they would use that PG\CPU\Cap to boost things like dmg output, tank, or tackle. There are few things that prioritize a minor speed boost over a potentially massive increase in one of these other areas.

11

I think I’ve found the discrepancy in our perspectives. By contrast, almost everyone I know has prioritized their fitting skills even moreso than ship, weapon, defense, etc skills. It’s one of those skills they want to get to L5 ASAP from a brand new character.

They also make light use of APCs, RCU, PDSs, Co-Procs, cap modules, and fittability rigs (direct and indirect) to provide a significant boost in fittability without losing too much by the slot that went to a fitting module over another performance module.

12

I’m not saying that people don’t push to those skills, I’m just saying they don’t push to them because of a prop mod eating all their fitting. Fitting a T2 Armor or Shield mod, T2 Guns, Miners, etc maybe but I can’t say I’ve ever heard of someone pushing their fitting to get that T2 prop mod in. They will compromise the prop mod to a compact without even considering it if it gets them an upgrade in one of these other areas. The purpose should be to make a question of if you should or not.

Also to note it seems you have more covert experience to which I have little to none (not my thing). Maybe that’s where it 's so important.

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13

It is nice to have a civilized debate on the basis of the evidence and with sound rhetoric without ad hominem attacks. :slight_smile:

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14

I don’t see what the point of this suggestion is other than for the sake of making a suggestion.

-1

15

I don’t see what the point of your post is other that for making a post about your lack of reading the thread. Contribute or ignore the thread.

-1

(yes I know I fed a troll)

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16

They only increased by a factor of 2.5. Yep, they are almost cheap…

17

A ship is a trade off between many factors: firepower, defence, speed, manoeuvrability, endurance, carrying capacity and cost. There’s probably more in that list as well.
To differing players in differing situations and different personal perspectives the balance point is different.
This is then further compounded by a lot of these aspects interact with each other - for example, different 50MN MWDs have different maximum speed modifiers (obvious), different capacitor usage (impacting endurance), different capacitor penalties (endurance and often overlooked - the fitting saving in a compact MWD costs you a lump of your capacitor and so reduces recharge rate), fitting requirements and costs are also a factor.

Now, I regularly fly a MWD Sacrilege with an active tank and a large battery (for “reasons”).
The best MWD outside of Faction drives on that fit is a T2. I get better capacitor stability (useful) than a compact, a better top speed than the T1 variants, the signature impact is less of an issue because it’s a HAC I take less damage with the MWD running (I’m a mixed active armour and speed tank) as I can keep traversal up.

To just say “it’s bad” because for a few use cases a lower rated module is equally good isn’t s sound basis for balance. Make the changes you suggest and my Sacrilege will be even more effective; possibly overpowered - as it is I have a choice. Do I drop to T1 modules for some aspects, or. Do I spend more on easier to fit but horribly expensive faction modules? Yeah, that T2 MWD was worth the cost of the faction battery.
The spend on the faction web was a choice.

There’s s lot more to balance than “in case X it doesn’t work therefore it’s broken” because it will work elsewhere: Assault ships, interceptors, MWD/Cloak slippery haulers. They all benefit from better prop-mods.
And as a manufacturer who’s looked at the profitability of T2 MWDs, trust me - they aren’t over priced.

And yeah: train fitting skills - that also skews the view of what works. Low skills forces more trade offs and sacrifices in a build.
It should never be possible to fully T2 fit a ship. Resource shortage drives people having to make a choice of what is less important to them. Do a lot of people “a bit of speed” is less important than damage.

For a lot of people that extra few percent speed and capacitor is rarely important - so a T2 prop-mod is rarely a priority. But as you start to understand when it is important then you’ll make the sacrifices for it.

As you may have gathered I’m content with where T2 prop-mods are. Changing them, especially as proposed will have a lot of side effects that could be problematic.
They are an option worth considering as they are. Making the a lot more cap efficient will be unbalancing in favour of speed tanking fits.

Oh, and really avoid the Compact MWDs like the plague if you’re flying a laser boat. If you can’t get a T2 on, then go for a restrained.

18

@Terak_Romaller reminded me: Minmatar ships are so insanely fast that the “minor” boost in T2 speed amounts to a significant gain in speed. Many Minmatar ships can roughly achieve speeds with an AB what other comaprable ship require an MWD for.

19

Just to bring some numbers into this I grabbed a few ships at random out of pyfa.

Caldari Navy Hookbill
T1 Compact AB - 19.45% of the overall PG, 1117 m/s
T2 AVB - 23.78% of the overall PG, 1170 m/s

Exequror
50mn compact MWD - 17.70% of the overall PG, 2073 m/s
50mn T2 MWD - 21.64% of the overall PG, 2091 m/s

Adding the Sac for Terak since he posted while I was gathering

Sacrilege
50mn compact MWD - 9.8% of the overall PG, 1663 m/s, 1.59k cap, 180GJ
50mn cold gas MWD - 11% of the overall PG, 1663 m/s, 1.59k cap, 160GJ
50mn quad Lif MWD - 11% of the overall PG, 1663 m/s, 1.7k cap, 180GJ
50mn T2 MWD - 12% of the overall PG, 1677 m/s, 1.7k cap, 200GJ

Going off the Sac, for compositor on a laser boat the Quad Lif or Cold gas are pretty obvious winners. I respect your preference on more speed… but 14 m/s isn’t worth 20GJ per cycle or 30PG\7CPU unless you simply don’t have anything else to spend it on.

20

Using a Muninn for example

Muninn
50mn compact MWD - 9.30% of the overall PG, 2162 m/s, 1.22k cap, 180GJ
50mn cold gas MWD - 10.30% of the overall PG, 2162 m/s, 1.22k cap, 160GJ
50mn quad Lif MWD - 10.30% of the overall PG, 2162 m/s, 1.3k cap, 180GJ
50mn T2 MWD - 11.3% of the overall PG, 2180 m/s, 1.3k cap, 200GJ

For and MWD you’re looking at a 18m/s increase. On the T2 while giving up 15-30 PG, up to 7cpu, and 20-40 GJ p/c.

Switching over to an AB will grant you 770-807 m/s and not use the HAC’s advantage.