PvE Exploration Restrictions on T3

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
1

I would like to notion a request to lift the T3 Cruiser restrictions from Ded 3/10 and 4/10 sites in and around High Sec.

Firstly i understand and appreciate the reasons behind why these restrictions were first implimented but i feel these restrictions are no longer necassary as it’s an outdated nerf. More recent updates such as the Triglavians makes exploration as a form of generating ISK is far from the Meta. Exploration in HS was never actually that lucrative, at least in my experience and i’ve been playing EVE on and off since 2011.

There are several reasons why i think these restrictions should be lifted, some may or may not agree with me.

1, Exploration isn’t a lucrative profession (In High Sec) compared to others.
2, There are other all in one ships such as the Stratios that can do the same as a T3.
3, Having to travel great distances to swap out ships to run said sites.
4, After ship swapping, to find the site no longer exists and having to start over.
5, T3 Cruisers cannot enter sites when Navy issue battlecruisers can!?
6, T3 is not guarenteed to win over contested sites due to low DPS (T3 vs Navy issue Drake or Vexor drone ship or even a Stratios for example)

As a solo player i do not want to be forced into Low sec or 0.0 in my T3 to run DeD 5/10 and up, where i will almost certainly be shot down! Yes i understand challenge and risk is part of the game but there has to be some kind of balance to it all.

Finally, since the game is now a free to play model, paying members should have certain advantages over non paying members and since a T3 is an Omega ship, lifting those restrictions seems very reasonable and if not encourage Alpha pilots to upgrade their pilot status.

3 Likes
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Um no. The T3’s are OP compared to all other options. Especially given they can be fitted to run both hacking and combat sites and excel at both.

  1. True, so leave HS behind in your T3 and use it where it can make better isk.
  2. Yes but even an exploration fit Tengu will out DPS and (more importanly) out range the stratios.
  3. Outside of the stratios everyone else has to also re-ship, or utilize a probe launcher on a ship that gets no bonuses to scanning. An exploration T3 will out scan the competition while still being able to run the sites without reshipping.
  4. Same as 3
  5. So what? A HML Tengu will still out range a Navy issue Drake.
  6. Usually it is. DPS is not the only factor. A HML fit tengu will out range a HML drake by a good margin. You only need to drop the one ship in a site to get the good loot. They are often far away, so you still have a good chance of winning. That is on top of the advantage you will have by flying a ship that has bonuses to scanning (Which the navy drake will not).

You aren’t forced. There are plenty of non T3 ships you can fly to run HS sites. Just because you prefer your T3 is not a good enough reason to change this.

1 Like
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I don’t think you truly appreciate the hardships exploration pilots face, especially in high sec.

I don’t want to get into a debate as your opinion came across as very aggressive…

I’ve been an exploration pilot since day 1 back in 2011 so it’s safe to say I have a good understanding of the mechanics and I assure you T3 are not as OP as people make it out to be. Sure they have bonuses to scanning but usually sacrifice in other areas to compensate… I often miss out on sites when contested with even just a Vexor which is more than capable to scan and run sites. Drones fly a lot faster than my T3 and can easily hit and run those valuable single targets. I suppose it does depend on how a T3 is loaded, personally I run heavy pulse lasers over missiles that would also allow a small drone bay. That’s just my personal preference.

I don’t run sites for ISk, I run sites for the enjoyment of the whole process, except for when I hit those restrictions, most explorers are the same because why waste all those hours hunting a site when you can make double the isk in half the time and less effort? For example abyssal sites.

I could, jump in a stratios and be done with this argument but it still makes no sense that a stratios is just as capable as a T3 but is banned. I’m being punished because I want to use a ship for one of its intended purposes!?

3 Likes
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:rofl:

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LOL seriously? I too started in 2011. I have done TONS of exploration. I also have 5 accounts, all of which have at least one character that can perfectly fly a T3C (I have also spent many years in WH space) so I know a ton about that ship type. I’ve spent more time in T3C than all other ships combined.

In fact i’m currently in a Loki, running the LVL 4 epic arcs, because they are just that good.

So speaking facts over feelings is agressive? Making game changes needs to be based on facts not how you feel about it.

So a few fun facts.

Most 4/10’s have the key NPC at least 60km from warp in.

An exploration fit Stratios, with lasers and drones. (capable of scanning hacking and fighting without refit)- 458 DPS with ogre II’s + lasers. 10km range on lasers, Ogres are the slowest of drones.

An exploration fit Tengu, with HML (also capable of scanning hacking and fighting without refit). 457 DPS with a max range of 94km

If you are trying to snipe the target with a full room, those ogres will be lucky to not get aggro on their way to the target. The Tengu will burn it down while they are in flight. If you want to go sentry drones for that immediate damage, you’d need at least Curators, for the range. With that the Stratios drops to 370 DPS.

Now add to this mix, that the Tengu can refit via mobile depot in mere minutes to be combat fit (even able to swap rigs). Now it’s hitting over 500dps at the same 94km range.

Now to throw out one more, a HML drake navy issue, solid T2 (with even 3 caldari navy BCS)fit also capable of exploring and fighting, does ~456dps with a max range of 78km

So an exploration fit Tengu will out DPS BOTH other examples. And the Tengu can refit quickly for pure combat and push out even more DPS.

Now I LOVE LOVE LOVE T3C. I currently have 2 toons flying them (as I mentioned one running the gallente L4 Epic arc, and one roaming WH space). However they do not need to become the defacto HS exploration ship, which would be what would happen if the restriction was lifted.

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Then perhaps the Tengu needs nerfing because my legion certainly does not have a 94KM range nor does it have 500dps, sounds like the Tengu is in a league of it’s own!?

7

LOL

You can rund certain 4/10 in a one day destroyer and all hisec combat exploration (expect 5/10) in any cruiser (T1).

ps. Dens and angel refuges escalates into 5/10. You can try farm those in T3.

1 Like
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Well the legion certainly is probably the weakest PVE T3C. But they all have their pros and cons. A legion has a great advantage in laser mode that you can explore for extended periods of time as ammo takes up almost no space. Missiles are probably the most bulky of ammo.

That being said it’s not difficult to build up a decent cloaky scanning beam legion that does 407 DPS out to 100km and does 713 with Gleam. Or the same fit without the beam range does 512 with scorch and 824 with conflag.

Aside from that the benefit is still that you can completely reconfigure a T3C in space with a mobile depot, including swapping subsystems and rigs. So they aren’t stuck with having to lose fighting power over scanning.

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You can reconfigure any ship in space… and fitting a beam legion isn’t exactly great for combat sites, with all that capacitor requirments you’re going to sacrifice on tank heavily. If the legion is the weakest, then perhaps that needs a buff to bring it more in line with other T3’s!? My CovOps HPL Legion sits around 375Dps at a range of 38Km Fo and 31Km Optimal. with no drones and fairly good dual active armor tank. (not the best it can be but best suited for long extended expeditions)

Anyway, i’m not debating the capabilities of a T3… Back to my original point, explorers explore for fun… for the most part and the time invested for the isk return almost makes exploring worthless unless you get EXTREMELY lucky which is very HIGHLY unlikely in High Security space. Im not experienced enough on relic/data sites i almost exclusively run combat sites as i find it the most enjoyable.

So we have established that exploring is kind of a hobby these days, so why the restrictions? It’s far from a get rich quick career if anything it’s a get rich in 10 years time by the sheer amount of time and effort required. It’s not like in 0.0 or low sec where we can go ratting and make a ton of isk in 5 minutes OR run an abyssal site and get in excess of 100mil per hour! Career progressions in EvE are SO unbalanced it’s unreal!! You can even make more ISK per hour running level 4 agent missions over Exploration combat sites.

So what if the T3 does become the meta for running sites, it’s no different to say meta battleships for Incursions, meta cruisers for Abyssal sites or meta mining barges for mining etc etc Ships like the T3 are played for specific roles like any other ship but is one of the only ones that are restricted from one area it was designed for… Besides, we’re still forgetting that EVE is now a free to play model so why not allow Omega pilots to have a slight advantage and MAYBE encourage alpha clones to upgrade.

After 2 hours of exploration, i found a handfull of regular combat sites with very little in the way of loot and none of them escalated, an insane amount of wormholes, data and relic sites here and there which i usually ignore, one ded 3/10 site and one ded 4/10 site of which i could not run in my T3. Most of my time is spent either travelling or fine tuning probes… Exploration needs some attention from the Devs to revitalise the career path, at the very least it can lift the T3 restrictions to help out. Heck even if they make it so T3 are not restricted from DED 4/10 but still restricted from 3/10 will be a HUGE step forward!

It would be nice to have some other peoples opinions on this, perhaps a response from the CSM??

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You have to face the truth that CCP will not buff highsec anything until they get to the 99 other things on their priority list. If they do it will be an indirect buff by way of something else being changed.

I suggest you just fly a different ship, there are so many available that can do this content it isn’t worth mentioning.

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Obviously, but this completely ignores the point i was making. No other ship can be completely reconfigured in space the way a T3 can. You can literally go from a bubble immune, covert ship, to a combat focused one anywhere you can drop a mobile depot.

They are completely OP for HS exploration. But seeing as you have your feelings, and don’t care about those facts, I’ve said my peace and I’ll wish you luck.

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That’s where the balance is, though. You’re asking to be able to use the best ships for exploration in the game to run sites quicker and faster in the safest area of the game, because you don’t want to take the risk of doing it where you could lose those ships. This seems like exactly why T3s are still barred from doing this stuff in highsec.

5 Likes
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I feel like none of you are actually getting the point… i can’t put it any other way that makes sense.

Exploration is not what it used to be and how many times do i have to say that IT’S NOT ABOUT MAKING ISK FFS! why nerf something that isn’t game breaking? It’s like saying to someone, You can have a car but you can’t use it in public because it gives an unfair advantage over those that can’t drive…

Why exactly is useing the best ships for any given task a bad thing?? Everyone else is capable to train those skills and do exactly the same, the balance is healthy competition. like i said in a previous post, allowing in ded 4/10 and not 3/10 would be a compromise for newer pilots not capable of flying T3.

If anything it is unbalanced that a vexor, statios and a drake among others can both scan and run sites whereas a T3 has to swap ships and probably travelling great distances to do so and most likely missing out on chance to get maybe 2-10million isk per hour/2 hours. Not that those ships have bonuses in scanning but lets face it, scanning isn’t hard and pretty much everyone can do it once you learn the mechanics. If i must fly a stratios that is just as capable as a T3 but doesn’t have the restrictions then so be it but this stupid rule is just that… stupid and nonsensical!

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You are trolling or just don’t do content you are talking about?

You can easily make over bilion per week doing hisec combat exploration. Depending on how much time you waste on the game and how much you specialize. 10-20 bil per month sustained. It is about isk and you know it…

There is no point in making t3c available in 4/10. For same reason 99% people use cruisers not battle cruisers. Focusing only on 4/10 and up limits more than 50% of content and income. You can run all sites in any t1 cruiser. t3c is to OP in terms of pve and pvp. You want to use your shiny ship, go to lowsec or wh and stop saying nonsense

2 Likes
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when doing the combat anomaly , the only thing that matters is lock time and ability to kill the last npc for the chance to trigger an escalation .

your legion should beat any of those , making the final kill while drones are traveling or drake navy is still trying to lock …
of course , it’s not guaranteed … we don’t have those in this game .
as you say , it’s mostly for fun . and the price of entry , for fun , shouldn’t be an omega account and a T3 cruiser …

16

Let’s not.

It isn’t especially nice or fair for 9-year veterans to out-compete new players in their high-skill, expensive ship.

Use your toys outside of highsec, or use the more accessible ships if you insist on taking highsec exploration sites from the new players. Let’s not change the rules so you can sweep them up more efficiently than the few month old player just because you want to use a particular ship.

-1

2 Likes
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OH we get the point. T3C were banned from those sites for a reason. Those sites are still the same, and T3C are still OP given both the r damage output and insanse fitting flexibility.

But you have the argument of “but i want to fly my T3C NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW”

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What has changed about it that makes it “not what it used to be?”

Honestly, this whole argument seems to be that you want to be able to use a chainsaw to hammer a nail.

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There are no sites in high sec that require scanning bonused ship. You can scan down literally any site except two, namely Standard and Superior Sleeper Caches, in any unbonused ship. If you fit scan strength med slot mods you can even get those I think.

All-in-one ship is generally bad game design, as it makes it a necessity for the activity. Having said that I fly Phantasm which I use for 3-5/10 combat exploration sites in all 4 empires, I only swap 1 shield amp module accordingly. I also have 1 utility med slot to switch between SeBo to lock faster, data analyzer for Ghost sites, and additional shield amp for 5/10s. I also carry with me fitting to hunt diamond rat Haulers if I’m in a mood for that.

The only drawback is EM damage only, which means that your paper 590 dps @ 30km / 300 dps @ 60 km turn into 1/3 against some Gurista or Angel rats.

Exploration as I see it is about going long distances in search for sites, 50-60 jumps per 2-3 hr session. Weekly roams away from home base. Switching ships is not an option.

But highsec exploration is also about competition. What you’re suggesting - using OP ship will stop all competition - you’ll just finish sites too fast. Which will also ruin DED module market.

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Oh, it is extremely lucrative compared to other professions in high sec, as pointed out above. It may not be compared to other security space, as it shouldn’t be by design.

Prices on DED mods are lower compared to last year. But look at PLEX price and everything else. Whole economy slowed down.

You won’t fix decreased demand by increasing supply, which your suggestion implies.