PvP training wheels

Communications Center General Discussion
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PvP is essential part of EvE. Yet, some players (especially new/inexperienced) seems to avoid it like cancer*. No surprise cause at first it seems a bit like when John Wayne taught some kid how to swim:

To tell the truth all EvE feel like that at the beginning.

Engaging in PvP means you are putting your ship on the line and loosing means lost isk that you need to replenish, buy new ship, modules and try again (or fk it ).
PvP for new/inexperienced/PvE player often (always?) means loosing a bunch of ships before they get good/experienced enough to turn it around a bit.
This^ in my opinion is the main reason why players tend to avoid PvP in the beginning and sometimes even later in their EvE ‘career’. Once you get semi-good at it, it can be really fun but before that … it’s frustrating and hard. <- your experience may vary!

So, how about make learning basis or even intermediate stages of PvP not painful/frustrating/unpleasant ? How ?
Combat Simulator. <?>
We have Fitting Simulator right? So, you create fit of ship you are able to fly with modules you are able to use, you get teleported into virtual, locked out pocket and engage in “virtual”, simulated skirmish with other players, using ship you just fitted in fitting simulator. Or it can be one of ships from your hangar.
This could work analogus to RDF (Random Dungeon Finder) in other games. Maybe even have a selection of scenarios to choose from like 5 v 5 , 15 v 15, gate camp scenario or whatever else. You could subscribe ship for Skirmish, wait for other players and pew pew pew without fear of loosing your ship and need to start over. Then when actual combat occurs, you may be less likely to loose your s*it and more likely to know what you are doing.

Yes there is a test server - but its dead and a hassle to get into.
Yes there are alliance ‘trainings’ - but you need well organized alliance for that and ppl willing to do it for others, what about smaller corps and solo-players?
Yes there are youtube tutorials and whatnot - but they are not even close to real life pvp experience
and Yes you can buy 20-30? fitted frigate/destroyer/cruiser hulls and throw them into meatgrinder one by one … but … plz don’t make me go through why new ppl may not want to do this, again k?

Some of you may like the unforgiving nature of EvEs PvP. I personally think such tool would be great asset to help players get familiar with PvP in a controlled manner and maybe look at PvP from previously, for them unseen perspective. I taught of this as a ‘win : win’ scenario where ppl finally may gain enough experience to enjoy PvP and others who already find PvP enjoyable can have more content they enjoy. So its win for everyone. (or not?).

Thank you for your time.
BB.

    • actually cancer and EvEs PvP have a lot in common - you never know until it happens and you can only lower its possibility, you can’t be 100% sure - now, have a nice day :wink:
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I also believe that finding ways to encourage new(er) players to PvP, reminding them that ships are replaceable, and showing them various ways to engage in/be successful at PvP would be a great benefit to EVE.

I’m not as keen on the idea of a solo ‘virtual combat simulator’ because that won’t show them how actual PvP occurs and also doesn’t engage them with other players.

It would be better to have players interested in PvP sign up for “Combat Academy”, and be jump-cloned into a fresh, implant free body, in a specific sector of space unreachable by other means, where ships and T1 fittings etc are free at the Academy station, and players have a few various scenarios they can pick up as missions or warp-to sites and engage in actual PvP with other players.

A local or ‘Combat Training’ chat channel with an MotD that includes some basic ship fits, fitting advice and links to some discussions on PvP tactics would help.

Some basic incentives could be earned, but basically you go in with nothing, spend nothing while you are there, and when you ‘graduate’ you hop back to your original clone setup.

This should be set up in a way that allows veterans to pop in as well as new players, so that they can demonstrate, guide, recruit, organize or whatever. Since the ships/fittings would be limited to whatever is available at the Academy station I don’t think having veterans in would unbalance things too much.

This could be part of both the NPE for Combat/Mercenary pilots as well as a training course for non-new pilots, a refresher for players returning after an absence, and a recruiting ground for vets.

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The success rate of throwing kids into the lake is, or probably was, pretty high, though. It’s just that nowadays people consider this as bad (“thanks”, US of A), probably because there’s no hand-holding, and treating the child like a stupid victim/moron, involved.

Instead parents relied on their children to figure it out, because they didn’t assume that their children were helpless little victims … which they aren’t, unless they’re being treated as such, of course.

The opponents usually imagine a negative impact, again because they’re treating children like helpless victims, which is a rather degenerated perspective. Not trusting/having faith in your kid is bad. Such parents are ■■■■. When the whole logical base is wrong, any following conclusion is equally wrong.

That’s not saying there aren’t other ways to learn swimming, but saying that the “John Wayne method” is bad is just plain wrong. It’s actually super effective as long as children aren’t treated like victims from the day they were born.

The whole base for your post is seriously flawed.

What about them? They can train just like everyone else. Money definitely can’t be an issue, because there’s insurance and cheap ships are cheap. A corp that struggles with ISK isn’t really going to ever succeed as a corp.

I disagree with the thought that people shy away from PvP because it’s challenging to improve. Your idea would not actually help them have a better experience, because learning from painful mistakes is significantly better than learning from mistakes that don’t actually matter.

You’re not really explaining why that’s the case. All it needs is at least one guy explaining things and other guys wanted to learn it. ISK isn’t really an issue at all, ever, in the whole context. It’s ridiculously easy to make tons of ISK as a group (or solo) and any group failing at that doesn’t require combat training.

What about them? A “combat simulator” isn’t going to do any corp any good, at all, because they still don’t gain actual live experience and a simulator definitely isn’t required to learn how turrets, missiles, tracking works.

In the long run is a “simulator” not something that will help anyone. It will only give the illusion of being helpful and those who are too scared to “jump in” will stick with the simulator instead once they’ve learned that “live action” can’t be simulated.

Keyword: controlled.

When the control is gone, they’ll realize they could have spent all the time actually training “live”, because the controlled scenario isn’t ever going to be useful and anything else can be trained without the need of a simulator. Alternatively they’ll come to the forum whining about how the simulator didn’t actually teach them anything useful at all and was nothing but a mini-game to have easy PvP in.

I don’t see how you managed to get to the conclusion that such a simulator would be helpful in the bigger picture and definitely question the reasoning behind your idea.

Again? You never actually did.

vOv

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It’s difficult to believe that you can spout this level of unsupported, irrational BS and still pretend that your BS is somehow supporting your arguments that 'hiding in high sec and ganking weak players is good, and anything that does not support my hiding behind Concord protection and ganking weak players is “treating people like stupid morons” '.

Childhood swimming studies have shown that, at best, swimming lessons and drown-proofing in young children might decrease their risk of drowning, while also subjecting them to other risks.

There is no actual data anywhere that I could find on the success rates of “throwing kids into the lake”, since most people are rational enough to realize what a stupid method this is. That’s quite a long ways away from being “actually super effective”, nor is not throwing your children into the lake in any way related to “treating them like helpless victims”. It’s called “having a rational adult viewpoint about sensible ways to introduce children to potentially dangerous situations and learning how to deal with them”.

“The whole base for your post is seriously flawed.” ← You got one thing right, you just directed it at the wrong post.

Wow, talk about out of touch with the reality of the game. Pretty sure “how do I make more ISK” is one of the top 5 questions I see from new players every day. New players. You know, the ones the OP is talking about getting more involved with PvP. Not players who already know every ISK-making trick in the game.

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@ Solecist_Project
Battle harden PvP veterans often don’t realize how difficult and frustrating are actions they consider obvious and easy, for new/inexperienced/PvE players. This is cause lack of understanding which is totally common. Something analogus often occurs when for example someone from younger generation tries to tech his/hers parent or grandparent to operate some piece of new technology. You think clicking mouse is obvious and natural while the other person doesn’t even know which end is the front and which is back.

My idea of some sort of PvP combat simulator was to give ppl chance to get a feel for operating pvp ship in combat conditions close to ‘real’. I’m talking about training in cap management, tank management, strategies, EWAR, pros and cons of ships and all those sweet details.
Understanding this requires REPETITION. When another try requires you to go to trade hub, replace ship, replace fit, fly to pvp spot, you can’t talk about effective training here.

Main goal of Combat Simulator was to abstract bulls*it from player so he/she can focus on what actually matters.

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From years of helping people in various ways, putting in time and effort into creating guides, YT videos, explanations, PVP corps for newbies, one on one tutoring and whatever else I’ve done and tried. Here’s an important conclusion:

Most people are too lazy and/or too stupid to be taught anything that requires them to think for themselves.

People, both in game and in RL, rely on repeating basic behaviour without needing or using too much thought or initiative. That is how they fake understanding and competence: just do it a 100 times and then act as if you have a clue. This is why the second someone is placed in a slightly different scenario they fck up.

All that is the reason why so many are in massive null sec alliances. They’re not actually pvpers but they can pretend to be because all they have to do is hide their terribleness and laziness in the massive group, doing exactly as they’re told by their CEO/FC (and most can’t even get that right). So they can then brag about how great they are, even convincing themselves.

And when you introduce a change, say Blackout, those people just don’t have a clue on what to do. You can also very easily pick them out by checking their Zkill and selecting “solo”. Suddenly it’s mostly just losses in fits and ships that make NO sense whatsoever, because the second they’re not told/forced to use doctrine fits is the second they have no clue on what to do or how to fit a basic ship.

There’s lots of that on the forums as well. Many forum warriors, quite vocal ones, whom if you check some details on them turn out to be utterly clueless.

Result of all that? The player pool of people who are willing and capable of learning actual pvp is rather small, you can try and support or coax them all you want it’s not going to help. And also, the second I come to realize someone is a waste of effort I stop bothering, I’d rather put my time and effort into helping someone who is worth helping.

The OP’s “ideas” lead to nothing, apart from being against the sandbox concept of the game.

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Fitting Simulation gives players chance to test things on paper.
Combat Simulator would give players opportunity to rapidly and repetedly test things in action.

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And yet strangely, most people do reasonably well in school, reasonably well at their jobs, support themselves and their family, look after all the necessities of a world more complex than EVE on a daily basis.

Sounds like another pretend-PvPer thumping his chest with a “I am smart and competitive and everybody else is dumb!” rant. Why do the fake PvPers feel the need to do this?

I don’t see anything on your killboard. I don’t see any guides or YT videos or PvP or PvP corps for newbies. Just a 2 month old posting alt created to display someone’s unsupported and fact-free opinions in the forums.

Back up your statements with something more than “I am leet and people are sheep!” and maybe you’ll have a post worth reading.

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@Theron_Larkis
Besides, take into account phychology of tutoring others. You can have 1000 magnificent students which whom you are very proud. But if 1 of them is lazy, good for nothing, sheep , stupid and whatnot, you will remember that one the most. It is how it is.

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It’s the other way round.

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Most people make really bad decisions when going to school and in life. They rely and survive purely on acting like they have a clue.

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Test sever is what you’re looking for. And it doesn’t require any extra dev time.

But simulated or arranged fights won’t adequately prepare you for fights in the sandbox. People that don’t want to fight cause they might lose something will likely not make the leap from simulator to sandbox anyways.

Help new bros to pvp by taking them under your wing and offering srp. Everyone starts cheap, everyone loses at first.

Oh, and the best way for new players to try pvp in a controlled manner was cheap wardecs. But hey-ho :man_facepalming:

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@Daichi_Yamato
From what I know engaging in PvP with other players who did not agreed to it is forbidden on test server. You’d need a dedicated group to go to test server with you and help you with your “simulated combat”. I don’t see that happening.

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Actually there is stuff on the KB but it’s not like I’m boasting about it because they’re pretty much meaningless kills. And being a 2 month old new character it’s not exactly weird to have quite the empty kb. For you however, a 2007 character with a single clown fit loss in 2017, it’s a bit different.

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One of the problem the test server has it that people use unrealistic fits, they have silly expensive implants they’d never use on TQ with silly expensive fits they’d never fly on TQ.

That changes stuff so much, especially if you yourself don’t do it, that you can’t really learn much from Sisi in that respect. It will help you to create “muscle memory”, getting used to it all a bit but for actually assessing fights and confrontations it’s not really that useful.

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Mate. You’re playing an mmo. The likelihood of a player unwilling to interact with others lasting more than a few months is virtually zero. The chances of them wanting to pvp even less. Why are you trying to teach them?

Why not go for the players that are willing to put themselves out there and make friends/already have friends. Then get them on the test server.

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Exacly ! For new/PvE player who finds him/her self in PvP situation it’s super difficult to overcome stress, panic, think clearly and to actually put some tought into actions. That comes with time … and tens lost hulls. I wanted to eliminate that “lost hulls” part.

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But you don’t seem to understand that you don’t get the same emotions in a simulated environment.

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:roll_eyes:

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Ive been pvp’ing for years and i still panic when engaging!

There are plenty of corps out there who will take new players on and teach them the ropes, and also provide cheap ships to fly. My own opinion is once you get over the ‘fear’ of engaging someone then you will start to enjoy pvp. Too many people take losing ships personally then cry about it. You can only get over that fear by actually pvping for real, not in a simulator.

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