I agree with you - there needs to be balance on the structures, smaller structures with vulnerabilities that are viable for smaller corps. Eve is a game that very often feels like work - it becomes unviable at a certain point if you’re not a student with oodles of time to devote to a game.
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As soon as a wardec hit a small casual corp the POS could be removed, or turned death star if you wanted to.
Now it’s a different ball game altogether.
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What I would suggest is that there is a sort of adjustment slider that you can on one hand reduce the vulnerability period but it also impacts the benefit of that structure in terms of yield for the indy and refinery ones. This is so that the more casual player does not feel excluded.
I feel that pointing it out here is of course a colossal waste of time because CCP seem to have listened to the nullsec voices in terms of this, but one can only hope.
In reply to
Many of the players with a HTFU attitude will often ignore key factors like that when making their comments, Scipio is one of the better posters out of that group, however if he could be a bit more even handed I would prefer it, perhaps he might want to acknowledge that you have a point here, he should…
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People always forget about that somehow…
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If you plan on putting a moon on anything that has a rare moon ore or higher, the chance of it being removed before it is finally set up goes up greatly. Large corporations/alliances have a vested interest in keeping you from having those moons. They are necessary for the continued production of T2 components. With their existing large pools of ISK and their larger base of players, they can easily swoop in and remove any threats to their bottom line. Even if said moon is no where near their sphere of influence, it still constitutes a threat of a new entity entering the T2 marketplace and bringing down costs. They will then place their own structure there just so no one else can have it and they have all kinds of time to come by to defend it due to the timers involved.
Included with all that you also have to contend with players just acting like sociopaths which may or may not be part of these same alliances that just what to screw you over because they can.
So lets say you place a structure down. The chances of it being messed with right away are low. It is hard to muster up a response to it within 15 minutes although not impossible. The hard part comes after the 24 hours are up and the next 15 minutes kick in. Now anyone has lots of time to prepare for it. But lets say you are a corp with 5 people active. It isn’t that hard these days to easily be able to get such a structure with just 5 people. However another group of 6 people have already seen your structure and they just want to mess with you because they can so they bring in 2 dreads and a carrier plus a battleship and whatever else. They may rationalize to themselves that they just want a fight but they really they don’t. If they did they wouldn’t be picking on a smaller corp and bring so much firepower. Of course it is overkill because of the damage cap but what is your group of 5 people going to do about it? Unless you can bring equal to what they have, you can’t do anything. Your structure is defenseless because you can’t arm it yet so all you can do is sit back and watch it get blown up.
Eve Online has never been set up to allow the little guy to get ahead. Either be as big than the other guy or be swept away.
about 1995.
I’ve been under my rock that long eh? Seriously though, it’s definitely hit a fever pitch just over the past few years.
Problem is giving in a little at a time is what has lead us to the current situation. Everyone can always have a different perspective on a patch/direction CCP is taking or a situation within the game itself. It’s only natural that people would view these from their own sphere of influence, and even when one tries to step back to look at the greater picture it would still be different than another’s. Does that make any of them right? No. In fact, it’s much more likely that they are all horribly wrong as they were, at their core, decisions made based from biases and partial facts. Only the Dev’s hold all the cards, and that is why we can offer suggestions, but up to now they’ve listened far too much to the playerbase and far to little to their own facts and insight. Just look where that has gotten them in PCU and ask yourself, why should they continue listening? Why do they even bother keeping a CSM? A group of players who are given more facts, yet still hold tight to their bias.
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The only difference now is that The rigs can’t be removed. Also the POS would automatically shoot back, giving a small level of annoyance, the citadels don’t automaticallly shoot.
Oh and the whole 100% loot drop in wormholes. At least before it was RNG loot so the attacker didn’t get it all.
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Largest difference is a POS had enough automatic defenses they couldn’t be solo reinforced. An unattended citadel can be solo’d.
This thread is about moon mining. Wardecs are hardly relevant as the OP is concerned with wormholes.
This thread has nothing to do with Citadels, however that aside, you get to choose your vulnerability windows and there is an additional timer on the new structures compared to POS.
Depending on POS setup, they could be solo reinforced, but most people would prefer to poke their eye out due to the boredom.
But why is “solo” important anyway, or even relevant. How any attacker chooses to attack a structure is up to them. Solo or not, it doesn’t change the fact that POSs were vulnerable 24/7 and the new structures aren’t.
If defenders can’t defend their assets, they don’t deserve them, nor to own the moon it is on. Moons are worth something after all. They have always been a major driver of conflict and that’s how it should stay. It’s EVE after all.
OP is talking about solo Wormhole stuff. The fact that a Upwell structure can be solo’d much easier than a POS is very relevant and why many citadels have been destroyed in wormholes. Why weren’t POS’s killed as much in low class wormholes before. Well it was because they were a little harder on the initial reinforce and they didn’t drop nearly as much loot. The two parts of increasd loot is because they had finite storage vs the infinite storage of a upwell structure and POS have RNG loot drop where upwell has all loot drop.
The way I read it, it was concerning defence of structures and vulnerability timers.
That makes the difference between a pos and a new structure entirely relevant, along with the mechanics that concern them.
I didn’t mean to make this a wardec thread, I was just pointing out the massive difference, but players in large or massive corps and alliances can’t, won’t or just ignore the blatant issues facing the small guys…
And no, we don’t all want to be in them.
Small corps have concerns that CCP have ignored for years.
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POSs not killed in lowclass wormholes?
Where are you drawing this conclusion from?
I track the destruction of all structures across highsec, lowsec, nullsec and jspace every week. In wormholes, Upwell structures only just recently passed POSs for the total numbers for the year. Last year, POSs outsripped the Upwell loss significantly. Before that (when Upwell structures didn’t exist in the game for the whole year, POSs died all across jspace even more than now).
These occur all across jspace, very much including low class wormholes.
Current figures for this year (to 4 days ago):
So what data are you using for the basis of saying POSs weren’t killed in low class wormholes often?
But that still provides no explanation why the issue of solo play is even relevant? POSs were/are vulnerable 24/7, Upwell structures are not. If someone cant defend their structure and can’t defend their moon, they risk losing it. That’s their responsibility.
EVE has always been a dog eat dog place.
If any Corp can’t keep their stuff, then tough luck. Either defend, or don’t. It’s a choice we all have and owning structures comes with responsibilities.
We don’t need to continually try to shift our own responsibilities onto CCP to make the game easier for us.
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Scanned through a bunch of WH space structure killmails. Most Control towers in wh space that weren’t killed by capital ships were taken on by 10+ players. Very few were killed by only a couple players. Of course recently there’s probably more dead sticks that online ones. Upwell structures are very often taken on by 2-6 players in wormholes. I’m pointing out that essentially we have replaced POS with upwell structures and in the process slashed by some percentage the average fleet size to destroy them because their defense ability is significantly less than a POS.
Saying that i do think that the new refinery changes will by themselves kill the wormhole reactor farms of years past regardless of the will of wormhole dwellers to continue reacting.
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Show us the figures.
I’ll post more later when I’m at my computer. Full breakdown of the 5591 structure losses in jspace by wormhole class.
Will be interesting to compare actual objective data we both have.
Once you incapacitate the defences of a tower, final destruction can be achieved solo. It does get done.
People fleet up because bashing structures is boring, not because it is hard. Many hands make light work kind of thing.
But comparing our data should be useful. I look forward to seeing the numbers you post.
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