Returning player, residue.. why?

So you skipped reading all the blog posts and forum threads on the issue, got it. That definitely explains your wacky exaggerated polemic.

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There is a lot to unpack here, so I will try my best to get it all. I apologize for the incoming wall of text, no TL;DR.

I can’t speak for CCP’s inter workings, but looking at another historical change I feel I have a grasp on what they intended to do. Back in the day, you could get 100% refining without maxing your skills. This effectively meant that maxing the skills was worthless. CCP then came in and added more minerals to all ore, but also reduced the maximum refining efficiency so that you could never get 100%. When you compared the pre-patch refine yield with the post-patch refine yield (at the same skill level) you effectively got the same amount of minerals. What this then allowed was for maxing your skills, getting an implant, refining at structures, and refining in lower sec space to increase your refining yield. Making it more profitable to do the above things.

This is similar to the residue change in its original form. Originally, T1 gear got 100% residue. This meant that for every m3 you mined, the same volume would disappear. Effectively you could mine half the available ore. Combined this with doubling the available ore everywhere and you are back to square one. But if you trained into T2 lasers and crystals, you could decrease (or vastly increase with Type C) your waste. This meant that more skills meant higher yield and more available ore. Then people started crying “Think about the children (rookies)” and CCP changed the T1 residue to 0 (even though Miner II’s take a few hours to train into and crystal skill requirements were vastly reduced. Now it is more like “Slow and Steady” vs. “Quick and Dirty”.

Right now, an Orca with a T2 Indy Core mines about the same as it did before New Dawn, albeit with an added fuel cost. Add in the compression module and you can now run longer before needing to dock up. I truly think that the issue was not “AFK solo Orcas” that were the issue, but rather massive fleets of Orcas. At the time, they got decent yield with low interaction requirements so people could run up several alts to increase overall yield. If you look at the Heavy Water requirements to use the Industrial Core, the biggest issue is fuel volume. A full load of Heavy Water can let an Orca run for several hours, but if you are running several Orcas, the overall volume adds up fast. To the point where a large Orca fleet would need a freighter running daily to the market to get more fuel. In the end, the Orca is still a solid mining hull, both solo and in a fleet of barges.

I am not sure what you mean by revoked, but if you are talking about the shape of belts reverting back to the pre-New Dawn crescent moon, they still contain twice the ore they once did.

I think that covers it.

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Drakes aren’t exactly command ships, don’t have 5 mids unless your consider the prop mod so obligatory that the 6th mid does basically not exist any more as it’s occupied by the prop mod (it’s not so clear whether drakes take AB, MWD, or both, though), and Drakes can’t take turrets at all.

The reason orca trolls were running afk orca fleets was not to get some ore, but to show off they would get away with it. Some people with just as many alts as the mining fleet soloers would bring Talos fleets and show the trolls they would not get away it, while others brought cynabals or ospreys to bump the afk orcas out of the belts. Miners never stopped complaining about “alt abuse” (how many orca alts were afk mining when the user was sleeping?) and being vulnerable to bumping, while suiciders never stopped complaining about orcas being poor content (a barge drops more valuable loot then an orca, is harder to tackle then a whale, and has more chances to send you an embarrasing killmail in return then a whale, too… i.e. a barge is more of a “gf” then a whale)

CCP “fixed” that by introducing the crab mod for the orca, which makes it alot less vulnerable to bumping, as well as nerfing procurers to be just as much of sitting ducks as whales are, when it comes to attempting to tackle them.
They also made orca wrecking more rewarding by introducing new modules to install on whales that are expensive and have a chance to drop… before the patch, the only expensive item on orcas was the rigs, and those don’t drop. The drone yield nerf, that is reverted by cycling a crab module, is a motivation for orca users to install the crab mod even when they’re solo-mining with the whale

If the ore in the whale (or porp) is compressed, a “good killmail” can buy back the whole concorded battlecruiser fleet. Before the patch you were lucky if an orca dropped enough value to replace a single blaster dessie.

This.

The orca yield was and is high only on paper. If you have 5 alts, using all of them in Covetors around your main’s orca will end up clearing an asteroid belt in way less time then you could clear it with 5 additional orcas, as the boosted Covetors reach out 40km with their strips, while the mining drones move so slowly that the orca itself has to go and kiss rocks… and orcas don’t move fast, either (the same goes with people telling that rorqual drones are ventures in terms of yield … non-afk ventures yield a lot more because they move faster, have larger holds, and engage from higher distances)

I totally agree. But there are situations where you can run the Orca for a significantly longer time period between interactions. So if you have your 5 Covetors, you have to be pretty active switching between them and moving (or compressing) ore. That same fleet of 5 in Orcas could be way less interactive. If you base your fleet size on interaction time, you could easily run a massive fleet of Orcas. Therefore, your 5 Covetors might mine the same as 10 Orcas, but my theoretical 30 Orca fleet would still out mine you.

EDIT: that last sentence didn’t read right.

its pretty simple . if you have better skills and use better equipment your leave fewer rocks on the field.
yah it was done to help the lower skilled players still be able to be in the mining fleet but still makes no sense. just another clumsly implementation by CCP
the push to use the ORE miners is yet another way of making miners juicy targets. the idea that improving drones for miners suddently turns them into combat ships is utter nonsense.
attackers just come in at range and you die anyway

No, not really. When a new account is created, Mining 4 can be skilled into within 18 hours, assuming it was an alpha account. Mining 4 will unlock the T2 Miner to put on the Venture you get as part of the Tutorial quest.

Unless you can bother spending 18 hours skilling for using improved mining equipment, you’re hardly a miner, and, if it’s your first account (rather then a new alt), you’re most likely not going to mine “valuable” ores before skilling up mining decently, anyways. The valuable Ore mining, for most players, begins when they join a corporation, and corp-mates invite them to attend a mining fleet (including Ice or R4 mining in highsec).

The T1 miner having a higher efficiency then the T2 one is only explainable by CCP wanting you to create more alts. Any new alt can immediately use the T1 miner and a Venture right after birth, so just create a few new alts, remote set up the home station, suicide jump clone to your corp’s null, and help out at the “high efficiency mining op”.

If miners had at least a bit of a spine, they’d just A-II all of the R64, and sell it for it’s mainstream marketplace trade median to their corporations’ industrialists, rather then selling it for 90% or even 80% Jita buy price and paying “moon mining tax”.

Public Highsec Mining Fleet pays 15M/h for you to mine in a Venture, 25M/hr in a Propsect, and 45M in a barge, isk on your hand, no 90% buyback bs, no mining tax bs. FC loses his orca to suicide gankers? You lose your ship? You still get your isk for the time you mined in the fleet while it was operational. Unless the R64 moon mining, that pays only for stuff that was safely moved into a station, after reducing mining fees and buyback losses doesn’t pay out more then CONCORD umbrella mining, why even bother with it?!

Actually, your statement is more of the same. All through the literature you assert I missed, people claimed to have knowledge that is not knowable. You now claim I missed “all the blog posts and forum threads”. That statement is manifestly false. If I read one post or thread your statement is false. Second, you can’t know what I read. Third I spent innumerable hours hours with the literature; made many dozens of posts and spent at least 12 hours on the test server. I was the Mining Director for a +200 member corp - twas my Eve job to be informed regarding these developments. So the true wacky part is the number of people who brought self conflicting statements (like yours) and lacked knowledge and experience of mining and industry.

I posted in the environment described above taking down other people’s arguments. Many of the arguments claimed to know the unknowable; were self contradictory and/or were factually incorrect. And because I was practically the sole voice of miners and industry, I employed a confrontational and bombastic style as a force multiplier.

I did not undertake the task to be liked and make friends. And, although surely debatable, I firmly believe I changed the outcome.

Lastly, was my first post a polemic? I give you that one.

A well reason response but I think we disagree.

Back at that time, I challenged people making wild claims to take screen shots and post them. I posted numerous screen shots to back up what I was doing to contrast against their evidence-free claims.

My bad. I have 5 Drakes and I was writing fast. They are missile boats. I used them for many hours in “smugglers” event several months ago.

But that is actually not the case. You don’t spend more time. The cycle time on strip miner I and II or Miing Drone I and II is the same. When you factor in residue, tier 1 is always better in all cases. No need to even have higher tier options in game. Makes no sense. This mechanic needs rework.

Nope. Wrong. You don’t understand how the mechanic is working. Read up on it.

The residue is not taken from your yield. It’s taken from the rock after your yield. All it does is reduce the amount of available ore. It doesn’t reduce what you mine.

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I think I didn’t explain clearly the idea of this post.
I don’t have a problem with residue as a concept, I like the idea of creating byproducts, it makes it more realistic. I like the mining crystals options too, the more choices the better. My main issue is residue being an RNG element, I don’t like rng elements that don’t provide anything to gameplay. It’s just a coinflip and nothing more in the way it is implemented.

I would like to have more control to such an important element of mining as byproducts are, without forcing me to go back to T1 modules or overspending in modules several times the value of my mining ship, wouldn’t call those really flexible options…

We are in total agreement here.
Since the changes I have found that my yield over time is higher when using “B” crystals and I use those on any rock that is not in short supply or super high value. Honestly that is most things out there. If it sits there un-mined it doesn’t matter what the waste is.

For the high value stuff I use “A” crystals and get about the same m3/hr and a little better total M3 compared to before the change.

I have not, and won’t do the math on it, but it “feels” to me to be a slight improvement over pre-change.

To provide a meaningful choice.

You can mine slowly, with T1 or TypeA, and get more ore over a longer period of time without having to move around.

Or you can mine faster, with Type B, and get more ore faster, but have to move more often.

Before there was no meaningful choice; T2 was also better than T1. Now they each have advantages and disadvantages.

That’s literally all it is.

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Yield is higher and, even taking residue into account, doubling all asteroid sizes (which happened in the same patch) means that even if you use wasteful type B crystals you get more ore out of an asteroid than before.

So it’s positive for both yield and amount of ore, and also offers more depth to mining in the form of optimization choices (yield versus efficiency). It positive in many ways.

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I completely agree with the OP. I too just resubbed after a long absence and wanted nothing more than to jump in my Orca and have a nice chill session mining away to myself … but it wasn’t to be.

I found that the MANY years I had invested into my mining character build have basically been wasted. I was unable to achieve anywhere close to the yield I was before, but not only that, some ore types have literally had their value stripped from them (Pyro) which makes the whole process of mining to manufacture much more painful. Not to mention … where is the lore? What’s the lore explanation as to why these rocks don’t have the same minerals available as before??

And residue … what a pointless mechanic. I simply don’t understand the move here. The Eve universe is set in a time when technology has advanced ridiculously far, and yet all of a sudden for no reason we start experience losses for no apparent reason according to the lore… it’s just rubbish.

So I’m sorry to say I’ve left again after just 1 day and refunded. When your whole character is built around an industry and that industry is destroyed in one second it leaves a bitter taste. Thanks for ruining something great CCP.

It’s been explained many times. Including in this very thread. You’re only loudly demonstrating how unwilling you are to read, learn, and adapt. It was cool in pop culture in the early 2000’s to loudly boast how stupid and uneducated one’s self is. Now it’s just cringey.

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Is there something like an official documentation about the residue handling, or are you refering a CSM’s post 92483 in some thread?

I haven’t seen official documentation for the residue mechanics so far.

Not to mention CCP managed to roll out updates on the test server and provide update descriptions that were totally inconsistent to the actual updates, including “forgetting” to update their test server before claiming to have updated it, so the discussions done at the time the feature was introduced are not representative for things that actually landed on tranquility… w/o having been on singularity before, as CCP once more decided they don’t need a test run which resulted in eve w/o gas, ice and BPOs for the new modules.

How about the triglivians cyberattacked the forces of new eden and broke their miners? In Triglivian Space you still have plenty of minerals in the ore, and CCP claims you can get 100% reproc rate there, too.

Make mining dumber, and increasing botting feasibility. Players don’t bot on their main accounts, those are for interactive play. Botting’s done by alts, so the better it works (in comparisation to player interactive gameplay), the more motivated players will be to create more alts.

Every “Guncannon Miner” will tell you that eve’s turret firecontrol systems are vastly inferior to nowaday’s technology. Likewise. missiles work by far more efficient then their eve counterparts, ECM modules actually increase chances of it’s user surviving… Oh, and the auto-approach/hold-distance/orbit manouvering system is outperformed by litteraly any navigation computer these days. Any. Take your 1960’s first generation plane autopilot and it’ll gently fade into it’s supposed track, while eve will overshot any track for certain, and it’ll overshot harder the more “manouverable” the ship is supposed to be.

We have more efficient “mining”, too. When a resource location is assessed, the amount of recoverable resources is estimated very accurately. The amount and composition of “residue” in the resource is well known to the “miners” before they even start harvesting it, too, so the randomness of the mining process in eve strongly hints the eve survey scanners also have inferior performance. As the quality of survey data is defining the efficiency that mining modules are used at (try drilling for coal in a granite rock w/o knowing there’s granite), the whole resource recovery operation is more efficient, too. We can sharpen a drill or melt it down and recycle it’s material into a new drill, while eve produces no re-usable material at all when melting mining crystals.

Eve isn’t about it’s setting or realism or science-fiction, it’s about giving advantages to players with more accounts. With 10+ barge alts, you won’t bother about residue any more as you wouldn’t have been able to micro all of them anyways. The fact you don’t have enough accounts has created this proplem for you, and the best solution to it is to subscribe more accounts, buy SP packs and get more barges on grid.

EDIT:

Pyroxeres have a lot of Pyerite , which appearently is in high demand these days:

Does it even take that long to fly a perfect Orca, with the magic 14, and perfect tank skills?

If you’re doing the whole “solo AFK in an Orca” thing… then good. Working as intended.

Yup and other ores got much more valuable… adapt or die.

Your effort free mining? Ok. Bye.

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