Risk / Reward in Suicide Ganking out of Order?

[Shajera]

Hey Capsuleers,

I recently noticed that there are a LOT of suicide ganks in Hi-Sec happening.

Multiboxing multiple chars seems also to be a staple here as well, not sure if this is always allowed if they all attack at once with some 3rd party macro.

What I wonder, if the risk/reward is in order.

It seems to be way too easy to gank and loot other expensive ships without any risk (as you can’t engage the gankers before it’s too late and they also use VERY inexpensive ships).

You also can’t repair or counteract the gankers in any way as the fights are even over before concord shows up.

In my humble opinion the whole ganking in hisec mechanic needs a rework in terms of risk and reward. It can’t really be that if I have a 100 million fittet ship, that another multiboxer with 2 ships worth 5 million can show up and kill me in hi-sec in seconds and then use a 3rd account to loot up 50 million on average.

If you doubt me, check this char out and check how much ships were lost and how much loot was gained:

Just world fallacy | Character

I don’t have any easy “solutions” on this, but I tried to fit a frigate so that it survives an attack of 1 or 2 cheap ships in hisec until concord shows up. It’s not possible. Even most cruisers have hp pools that are a joke if someone multiboxes some accounts to you.

So in general, the hp of the hull of all ships across the board probably needs to go up or some other change needs to happen. If the ganks would take a bit longer, you could also join the fight and remote repair the others to help in such conflicts would be really cool. So we would have a lot more “social” to help against gankers.

Imho, the risk for suicide gankers should go up - either cause others can help that their gank fails or that the price to gank goes up in some manner.

Risk / Reward seems to be total out of order.

What are your thoughts?

Sincerely

[Tipa_Riot]

Ganking is on an all time low in EvE, and no, the risk/reward is ok, because the victim, if knowledgeable, can reduce the risk of getting ganked to almost 0.

You can theoretically do a lot of things against ganking already. Nobody does because people don’t bother doing unfun stuff.

[leavwiz]

my “out of corp” hauling alt was recently ganked in spite of being well tanked and warp stabilized. The recent changes forcing more movement of ore have created a new wave of hauling/ganking scenerios. I dont know what the magic number is for not having enough value to be ganked is. but lately it has been happening even to empty ships anywhere near a trade hub. so clearly it is just for entertainment and not for isk.

[Lis_Torin]

[quote=“leavwiz, post:3, topic:302731”]
my “out of corp” hauling alt was recently ganked in spite of being well tanked[/quote]

and was using autopilot? Or hauled more than it’s worth to kill?

@leavwiz

warp stabilized

You wasted some slots that could be used for tank/align. No wonder it died.

@leavwiz

but lately it has been happening even to empty ships anywhere near a trade hub.

Mistakes happen. Sometimes you need to make decision of scanning target and spooking him or hope for luck.

[Shajera]

Well, if the target warps away in time, it’s not like the gankers ships all die. Simply nothing happens.

So there also is no Risk involved. And that’s an issue.

[Black_Pedro]

@leavwiz

but lately it has been happening even to empty ships anywhere near a trade hub. so clearly it is just for entertainment and not for isk.

I don’t know man:

zkillboard.com / Kills (Ganked)

Highsec criminals seem to go after blinged out miners and mission runners, and industrials with phat loot. Aside from a few unscannable Blockade Runners and some near-empty, but intrinsically expensive Jump Freighters, highsec criminals are going after things that make them ISK. Like you would expect.

@Shajera

It seems to be way too easy to gank and loot other expensive ships without any risk (as you can’t engage the gankers before it’s too late and they also use VERY inexpensive ships).

You can shoot outlaws before they engage you. They are permaflashy.

Multiboxing maybe does allow players to scale some things too easily, but this has much bigger impact on the game when players multibox industrialists and miners. The real problem is that years of ganking nerfs have made it all-but-impossible to be a highsec pirate unless you multibox. I’d love CCP to take a look and redo this whole ecosystem so that new players could viably be criminals, but just implementing yet One-More-Nerf to ganking isn’t going to make anything better. Highsec has enough problems without just making it even harder to interact with other players for no reason.

[Shajera]

@Black_Pedro

You can shoot outlaws before they engage you. They are permaflashy.

In theory maybe, in practice it’s impossible. Even if you try to hunt them down, they use safewarps, alts who haul in their gear and ammo and collect their bounty and stuff like that.

I do agree, it should be possible to gank ppl in hi sec, but with fittinggs and ships as expensive as the targets to even it out.

The system as it is is broken imho.

[Black_Pedro]

@Shajera

The system as it is is broken imho.

Broken? No. Ships carrying expensive ■■■■ still die yet most ships are left alone. Being a highsec criminal is far from without risk and highsec crime is probably at or near historic lows.

Could it be better? For sure. It is far too easy for both the targets and the gankers to mitigate almost all the risk. The criminals can calculate their expected return with good accuracy, and both outlaws and targets can evade each other with almost perfect certainty once they fully understand the mechanics. Only if one side makes a mistake can they be caught and exploded - both when it comes to outlaws and haulers. The gankers at least are open to messing with when it comes to loot retrieval/denial, but in general both sides can evade a fight they don’t want in highsec too easily.

Nowhere is suppose to be safe in New Eden, but CCP has given plenty of options to avoid a fight to everyone. If you use them, you are at near zero risk of dying to criminals in modern highsec. But you do have to use them.

[Shajera]

Yes Broken. See here:

Hulk | Ferris Rising | Killmail

Ships used to kill it worth: 10 Million
Ships killed worth 300 million.

Risk to fail at gank? Very low.

The relation is off. If the ships needed to kill would be worth 100 or 150 million, that would be OK.
If there would be a chance to fail, like 20%, it would be ok too.

But you just spend 10 mllion isk to kill someone who can’t do anything about it. What can the guy in the hulk do? Warp away when they show up in local? Your kidding me?

[Black_Pedro]

@Shajera

But you just spend 10 mllion isk to kill someone who can’t do anything about it. What can the guy in the hulk do? Warp away when they show up in local? Your kidding me?

Yes?

A Hulk that is mining aligned can immediately warp to safety. There is literally nothing the criminal can do - there is no counter to the pilot just docking up when they appear in local if they are paying attention.

Ships combat capabilities are not balanced on value, especially when it comes to industrial ships. They are juicy morsels they puts at risk to the other player in exchange for yield. Remember, risk vs. reward and all that? The miner in a Hulk gets the best yield available in highsec but the trade-off is the cost (and the puny defenses/small cargo hold). That’s all working as intended.

But in highsec there are no bubbles and a perfect intel system in local chat. You can use a Hulk just fine if you are careful, aware and attentive. People do it all the time. Sometimes, they get lazy or greedy, and get called on that by highsec criminals. That’s fine too, that’s the game.

Highsec crime has issues no doubt and could be made better to support more space for escalation and retaliation. But the fact a fleet of 5 combat destroyers can explode the flimsiest mining ship in a 0.5 system before the space police arrive isn’t one of them.

[Scoots_Choco]

@Shajera

if the risk/reward is in order.

It is. The gankers are guaranteed to lose their ships.
Whether or not the Reward is out of balance depends on how much you’re overloading your ship and not taking properly. If you want to push the scales to higher and higher rewards by packing your ship with high value items, you’re the problem causing the balance to shift. Learn better.

[Shajera]

A Hulk that is mining aligned can immediately warp to safety. There is literally nothing the criminal can do - there is no counter to the pilot just docking up when they appear in local if they are paying attention.A Hulk that is mining aligned can immediately warp to safety. There is literally nothing the criminal can do - there is no counter to the pilot just docking up when they appear in local if they are paying attention.

And even if the Hulk would been aligned, they would still suicide him, by using another alt to bumb him - which he can do without any risk at all as well.

Staying aligned is not the solution here, also if you are aligned all the time, you can’t mine stuff :).

But the fact a fleet of 5 combat destroyers can explode the flimsiest mining ship in a 0.5 system before the space police arrive isn’t one of them.

Not sure if you ever played the game. The “Hulk” as the name implies, is the biggest mining ship in hi-sec and not at all flimy. That 5 flimsy “destroyers” can even harm it is the moot point here.

You should need a battlecruiser or even a battleship to even break the shields of a hulk - my opinion.

There are mining ships you can even suicide gank with 1 ship alone :). Those are “flimsy”, just check out the retriever.

[Shajera]

@Scoots_Choco

ng properly. If you want to push the scales to higher and higher rewards by packing your ship with high value items, you’re the problem causing the balance to shift. Learn better.

Well the balance is out of hands, as it’s so cheap to suicide gank. Read and understand.

If I use a normal frigate and come back from a mission with a 20 million module, it’s already 30 or 40 times more valuable than the cost to get ganked.

This is OUT OF HANDS.

Ganking is way too cheap. Do the math.

[Scoots_Choco]

You consent to pvp the moment you undock. It’s expected that you have the brains to do the calculation knowing that there’s a possibility that you will get ganked. You are clearly aware of this, yet instead of adjusting your gameplay, you’re whining about it on the New Citizen’s Q&A section. If you want to use a more expensive ship to finish missions faster, that’s your choice.

[Vaendil_Reyksen]

Don’t mine, don’t haul, don’t do PI or any of that other crap. Become the ganker, that’s where all the fun seems to be at. Join a ganking corporation and really start playing EVE. Why be the hunted when you can train to be the hunter?

[Scoots_Choco]

@Vaendil_Reyksen

Why be the hunted when you can train to be the hunter?

This is a pretty good way to look at it.
If the OP really thinks it’s so easy to gank and that the rewards are so out of balance, he can give it a shot and realize it’s not as easy (or in some cases, as rewarding) as he thinks it is.

[Vaendil_Reyksen]

@Scoots_Choco

he can give it a shot and realize it’s not as easy (or in some cases, as rewarding) as he thinks it is.

I have no idea how rewarding it is ( I have a hunch that it is ) but it sure looks fun to trap your prey, immobilize it and blow it the hell up! Plus bonus fun with salt? Hell yea.
I’m not yet ready to get out there and hunt and I’m probably going to find me a corporation that ganks the hell out of unsuspecting players to learn the ropes and have fun gang-ganking in small fleet… I hope that by the time I can fly a good PvP ship with all the real modules I would’ve found a corporation that accepts me and my low-ass skill points, lol.

[Shajera]

@Scoots_Choco

You consent to pvp the moment you undock. It’s expected that you have the brains to do the calculation knowing that there’s a possibility that you will get ganked. You are clearly aware of this, yet instead of adjusting your gameplay, you’re whining about it on the New Citizen’s Q&A section. If you want to use a more expensive ship to finish missions faster, that’s your choice.

Yeah, and it’s all fine with that. Read my post. All I am saying is that it should be more risk involved for the ganker.

There are like zero strategies to win the fight against the gankers. Only to avoid it. Think about it.

In a game that should give you a sandbox full of otions, this is a declation of bankruptcy.

[Scoots_Choco]

@Shajera

All I am saying is that it should be more risk involved for the ganker.

The risk that’s involved is already one of the highest, the guaranteed loss of their ship.

@Shajera

There are like zero strategies to win the fight against the gankers.

Wardec them and fire the first shot when they get close? There, I thought about it.

[Black_Pedro]

@Shajera

Staying aligned is not the solution here, also if you are aligned all the time, you can’t mine stuff :).

You can. Learn the mechanics. You also can fit your ship to be immune to bumping. Or immediately stash it in a fleet hanger. And even if you aren’t aligned, you can get into warp before a criminal can land on you.

You are not helpless.

@Shajera

Not sure if you ever played the game. The “Hulk” as the name implies, is the biggest mining ship in hi-sec and not at all flimy. That 5 flimsy “destroyers” can even harm it is the moot point here.

You should need a battlecruiser or even a battleship to even break the shields of a hulk - my opinion.

Ok, you clearly are new. There are three exhumers each specializing in different things: the Hulk is for yield, the Mackinaw is for cargo hold, and the Skiff is for defence. The all have strengths and weaknesses, and the Hulk is especially squishy. Choosing the right one for the job is part of the game.

Now the Skiff is a tough nut crack unlike the Hulk. It does take a few Battlecruisers or Battleships to explode a Skiff before CONCORD arrives.

I suggest you fly that (or a Procurer) and learn more of the game before asking for changes to it.