Searching something to build in limited space


(Sasha Viderzei) #1

Oï !

I am currently living in a C1 wormhole, with a nullsec static. When the incoming connections are right, I generally do Exploration and stealing some relic sites from the locals, however when only the static is up I like to do some mining in the sleeper ore anomaly or the Athanors of my corporation.

For now, I’ve been stockpiling some minerals and compressing the rest to sell in known space, but I feel like I’m ready to step up and transform my raw minerals in finished goods !

Since I’m generally limited to low mass highsec connection, I could only use an Impel hold per trip (I already have Transport Ships to V), which mean I need to chose what I can produce and sell. For now, I thought I could, for example, some Quad Mega Pulse Lasers II, since I only need to import the laser focusing crystals. Sadly, those are quite bulky, and hauling them out could be troublesome if I start doing them at an higher rate.

What would be an interesting thing to build, please ? Ships are interesting, but since I’m interested in big sell for a single item, I’d be limited to battleships which are the hardest to haul out, alongside Capital components.

Thanks in advance !


(Anderson Geten) #2

It’s kind of a complex problem.

Any industrial operation cost several resources, and produces several resources. The goal is to gain most of one or several resources while minimizing the loss of others.

The resources consumed(the cost) include

  • materials used in the industry run of course
  • your time to set the runs, orders on market, optimization process, etc.
  • Your time to build the resources you wanna sell
  • isk immobilized in each run (taxes, market taxes)
  • isk and time required to move the goods

In this case, since you separate the mining activity from the industrial activity, the time to mine resources is not relevant. However this means the cost of materials becomes the loss from not selling those materials to orders instead of your product.

Since you would sell those mats to HS anyhow there is no difference in cost of “rolling the hole to go jita”. So we assume it is 0.

How to evaluate the cost of the materials you use ? Well it’s from the ore you mine. If you have compressed veldspar, then the cost of tritanium is the benefit you would have to sell the compressed veldspar in Jita. For other minerals used for a run, you can either use a complex method involving comparing the % of each required minerals to the one produces by refining your ore, or take the whole refined minerals as the total cost of your operations (then it is constant: you have one operation that builds several items from the minerals) and try to make as much of the minerals as you can.

Then there is the transport issue.
For this you have an interesting tool : haulers. You can roll a hole to HS (close to jita), drop your stuff in a station, then contract the stuff to Jita and sell it on an alt. In that case you have an additional cost as a % of the expected sell(collat tax), as well as a cost that scales with the volume of items(vol tax). Personnally I set a fixed 5% cost of my items, and then depends on your friends for hauling but you want to have a maximum value of isk/m³ you can accept - typically fo up to 10j around I would go 10 isk/m³

So then it’s up to you how you compute the price of items. Let’s say you consider direct order (so only taxes -assuming 1%) then the price of your ore is the current BO from jita , minus 1% market tax(so * 0.99), minus your collat tax (here * 0.95), minus volumic price (here 10 * volume). This estimated price is actually the COST of your ore, if you consume it.

If you start runs, then you will consume some ore, and additionally the job cost from industry index, as well as industry lines ; and you produce an item that can be sold to Jita with the same exact formula used above. It’s important to use the same formula otherwise you can’t compare them.

So now, I take the sell value, remove the costs, and divide all by the time required to do the job, and it gives me the isk/h of selectd job. I do this for all bpo I have, then sort them by isk/h. this tells me which bpo are worth or not.

In your case, you may fine-tune the hauling cost to take into account the number of jumps you have to make to move the product to HS.
I personally over-estimate the cost and under-estimate the benefit because it’s the only way to have a correct idea of the benefit. People who underestimate the cost and overestimate the benefit tend to lose money.


(Sasha Viderzei) #3

Alright, thanks for that answer mate :slight_smile:
I do however admit that it’s quite hard to understand. Basically, so long that I use my own mineral inside the wormhole, I’d have to calculate the price of those if I instead compressed the base ore and sent it to Jita…

I’m quite lost among all this.


(erg cz) #4

I will make it simple for you. Even if you will sell high margin T1 stuff like ammunition, you will never get more isk from it than from simply selling your minerals to high sec. Because you need to fuel that factory and fuel (especially in C1 WH with NS static) is not easy to get.


(Anderson Geten) #5

one simple T1 indus is worth 1 month of fuell.

Yeah I did not consider the recuring cost because I assume they are split effectively on taxes on each job.


(erg cz) #6

Which is hundrets of milions if OP uses Athanor instead of Raitaru. What margin and trade volume can level that? OP is solo, if I understood that correctly.


(Anderson Geten) #7

and then what is your point ?

if he makes enough money from industry (and he should) then he won’t care about 1B/month in fuel


(Sasha Viderzei) #8

That’s something I should’ve precised, it wouldn’t have created such confusion.

No, I’m not solo in this C1 wormhole, I’m not even the one calculating how long we have before the lights turn off in our citadels. We have multiple Athanors on quite profitable moons (even if they are still R4s), and our manufacturing plant isn’t an Athanor ; it’s an Azbel :slight_smile:

So the fuel factor is set to 0 in this equation.


(Anderson Geten) #9

How that ?

unless you have a better option for selling it of course. For some people it would be easier to build caps and then self destruct them for insurance and profit.


(Sasha Viderzei) #10

Yeah, I’m not to the self destructing capitals yet.

Concerning what I don’t understand, it’s more with the whole equation. I came up with this one, I’d like to get your opinion on it :

This would be the one to calculate the price of my minerals.
([BO of Jita * 0.99] * 0.95) * 10 + job cost.

And this, the one to get the ISK/h of my BPOs (don’t have access to them currently) :

(Sell value - Costs) / time required

Concerning the hauling cost, wouldn’t it be 0, since I’ll haul the stuff myself ? Thanks :slight_smile:


(Anderson Geten) #11

EVERY finite resource you invest must be present, unless you know the resource cost is too small. Your active time is the most important resource in the game. If you can do 300 M/h in a super there is no reason to instead be hauling to save 50M in 45min.

Give your activity time some value. Also don’t neglect that you can lose your ships to a gank.

why * 10 ? Volume is added so
BO * 0.99 * 0.95 + volume * 10 for the price of the ore.
Then from the price of your ore and what your ore is refined into, you can have the price of the minerals. This formula is up to you, several are possible.

An example of the formula of sell proportion :
If the total minerals of the refined would be bought 10B in Jita
And 1 veldspar solely would be bought 5 isk
And the total ore from previous method would generate 8B in isk
Then the price of 1 veldspar is 5*10B/8B isk.

I don’t use the tax/volumic because actually it’s not important. What you want is to share the value of the ore you COULD sell to the minerals you refine.

You can automate all those with spreadsheets and webservices like evemarketer .
The only thing you can’t automate is the cost index from the system.


(Sasha Viderzei) #12

Understood, thanks :slight_smile:

So, with that corrected equation, I use this BEFORE starting the job run to see the price of my ore.

Then, I use the formula I posted before :

To get the ISK/h of my BPO. I must admit, my collection of blueprints really small. I think I have some maxed out Rupture and Caracal BPO, but I don’t really know if I can get a good price out of it, regarding the size of cruisers, and their selling price.


(Anderson Geten) #13

You don’t want to start with too many bpos, writing the spreadsheet takes time at first (until you get a hand of it).
That’s especially true for rig manufacturing, which use a lot of different items :confused:

you want a main page that shows your bpos and the expected isk/h of them.
Then a settings page that allows you to enter specific values (taxes, system index, market region, refine %, structure te and me, minimum time to consider, etc.)
Then a market page that list all the items involved in sales and their id, and make their market price. Making it a single page allow to make one single request to eve-marketer which is much faster than doing as many requests as you have items.
Then an ore page lists your ores and their prices using above formula. This page also deduces the price of minerals (basically you have BO and SO for ore, while you have BO, SO and REFINESPLIT price for minerals)
Then a bpos page in which you write your bpos name, their stats, the product id, the quantity produced, the base mineral required, the base time( in s) for a run. Then for each bpo it defines the effective time of a run, the number of run required for the minimum time (eg if a run last 6H and you want to consider 23 hours at least then it’s 4 runs), and after that the effective minerals required according to the total ME. Then this can give you the cost, that you show in first page, which you use with sell value and total time to get the total isk/h.

There are many more parameters you can set.


(Sasha Viderzei) #14

Ah, I knew my Excel class in highschool would help me one day !

Once I’m home, I’ll set up a draw for that spreadsheet and I’ll share the link with you so you can give me some advices :slight_smile:

Be careful tho, the amount of stupidity could melt your eyes out of their sockets


(Anderson Geten) #15

I won’t look at it. I gave you enough advices.

here is the spreadsheet I made for last event. You can use it to have an idea how to fetch data from the market.


(Anderson Geten) #16

here is another spreadsheet that considers heron and incursus bp and tells with 0 system cost index and minerals already refined the gain from building each. You can even modify the bp stats, the structure mat and time bonus.

The volume is not correct so the values are bad, but it gives an example. Also it only uses one web call so it’s very fast to load.


(Sasha Viderzei) #17

Thanks.