No, we are supposed to go “ok fine” because the Tribal Council,the Parliment, our Tribal Chiefs and Clan Chiefs say so.
Are there things that maybe don’t add up or make sense to us? Of course, but we probably don’t know everything, we never do.
Can we discuss them? Sure because we are capsuleers and that gives us certain latitude, even up to suggesting conspiracies.
At the end of the day it comes down to trust. Trusting our Clan Chief’s, Tribal Chief’s and the Tribal Council.
How Amarrian.
And how do we know that? Oh, Shakor and Yun told us, huh? Screw that. Who benefited? Why, shocker, it was Shakor and Yun. I may have fallen for that crap at the time, but ten years and a hell of a lot of politics and intrigue later, trust me, that crap just screams ‘smoke-blowing’ now. I wouldn’t buy that level of crap from Mittens, I ain’t buying it from Shakor… and I sure ain’t buyin’ it from some shadowy bunch of idiots whose only claim on my trust and loyalty is ‘ooooOOOooooh we’re the Elders’.
And as for those Elders… Last I checked, Karin Midular was the Sebiestor Chief at the time, not some self-important twit calling themself ‘Sebes’ that none of us and none of our Clan leaders had ever met with.
The ‘Elders’ had centuries to get off their rears. They had no damned authority to go passing judgment. And neither did Shakor.
I trust my Chief. I trust my Chief now like I trusted my Chief then. But as for this…
The very idea that if we weren’t capsuleers, we couldn’t discuss something? That is a sign that no, we are not better off now than we were, and that the people who did that to us, who made the Republic a place where someone might have to fear talking about something… they need to be investigated, and prosecuted. Even if I know that will never happen.
The information I provide already accounts for Capsuleer activity in the two periods that I compare. You are correct the once Capsuleers began making a presence, a new dynamic was introduced and there was a massive rise in absolute terms. However simply including the rise in the number of capsuleers does not actually capture the level of activity.
The relative gains from capsuleer activity prior to the change in government is actually quite small. The jumps in that you are referring to are the result of an increasing population, not to an increasing rate of production. Essentially while there were indeed growth in the number of capsuleers, each individual capsuleer was not significantly contributing to production of the overall Republic. We can delve much into this, however we would be bordering on the realm of Economic theory, which diverts from this thread. (Although personally I would quite enjoy that discussion should you decide to have it, either personally or on another thread.)
But if there is a conspiracy, as you have been claiming, and Shakor has been the one behind the wheel the whole time, then wouldn’t it have been part of his master plan all along? Then it is only right for him to take glory that was his own doing!
On a more serious note; Yes there are trends that predate the change in government, however the numbers don’t lie. The relative increases of production, accounting for caspuleer activity actually grew after the change. This is because the reformation of the government into a tribal republic burned away bureaucratic red tape and corruption, and allowed each tribe to put into place effective regulation. The restraints placed on the economy were thrown off. This is was not the case during Midulars Prime Ministership.
Because we had been enslaved for countless generations, as a nation, we were an infant. And we owed our freedom in large part because the Gallente’s help. In our moment of victory, wonderment, awe, and naivety we did not know any better. They offered to us a system that they thought was best, with the best of intentions I have no doubt, and we accepted because we didn’t know to say no.
To this respect, I will say the Parliament, for all its failures, was an honest attemp, I do think we really tried, as a nation, to make it work. But there is no point in sustaining a broken system.
Yes, it rebalances the system to treat all tribes as equals. As far as risking an honest election, how many honest elections where their before hand, yet the Sebiestor kept domination due to a structural problem. I see your attempt to vilify the other tribes, although I suppose it is natural for the Sebiestor to question the legitimacy after having lost their place of power.
You do not quarantine cancer. You do not place it in a little holding part of the body for it to fester. You eradicate it. You remove it completely and ruthlessly from the body lest it linger and manage further corruption. The executions were ruthless, heavy handed. I do not argue that. However the same can be said for the fires that burn down entire forests, only for new life to grow. Fire is the great cleanser, and our Republic needed a new start.
Nor does looking at the increased in activity due to the massive explosion of the capsuleer economy in the last ten years in any way show any actual impact on the baseliner economy within the Republic that can be traced back to the Governmental change. You’re looking at us and saying 'See?!? It got so much better for people we can’t actually trade with.
No.
Put simply, if Shakor was behind a conspiracy to take power, then that doesn’t mean he was also behind everything else that happened before he took power. Elsebeth pointing out that many of the developments in the Republic’s baseliner economy far predate Shakor’s ascension does not mean she’s pointing out, for example, some plot by Shakor for the development of all new classes of ships by the Sebiestor. It would be like claiming a man who was blind from birth was behind different ship SKINs.
Offering is a great deal different than ‘bestowing’. To bestow something is to give it. The recipient doesn’t have to do it themselves. The Federation could show up how, but they couldn’t implement a democratic government in the Republic. We had to do that ourselves. Whether or not we knew to say no, we did it. It was not bestowed upon us.
Projection much?
And you do not punish criminals without due process. Vigilantism is a crime. We have laws for a reason, and the Elder Network’s wetwork teams broke those laws. If their actions were just, why can they not face justice?
Fire is a chemical reaction. It has no mind. It has no capacity for reason. It does not care if what it does is ‘good’ for the forest. Are you an unreasoning beast? Are you incapable of rational thought? Were those Minmatar who killed other Minmatar incapable of it? Or were they just too lazy? They had no right to make that decision for all of us. They had no mandate from the legitimate government to dispense justice. They had orders from a bunch of cowards who hid for centuries so they could leap out at an opportune moment and claim ‘We saved you all!’
At best.
At worst, they had orders from a man who stole public funds in order to arrange a coup d’etat, and who hid behind folklore and legends to justify it.
And for the record, fires that burn down ‘entire forests’ are not good for the forest. If the entire forest has burned down, there will be no new life. It has burned. When new life grows after a fire, it grows from life that was not burned.
Indeed.
Do you think it is a coincidence I speak of this openly now, when my son is immortal and my husband off planet?
…son…?
This explains much.
And makes what i’m going to do much more interesting.
I can’t decide if to apologise for the lack of proper introductions or to swear to kill you if you lead him down some twisted paths.
Also, it’s complicated, the clan relationship and politics involved. I can tell you more sometime, if you stay, but in not public.
There isn’t a path I walk that isn’t twisted. But I promise not to lead him down the darker ones I’ve travelled.
No I didn’t.
I’m an adult and responsibility for whatever paths I take rests on my own shoulders.
The whole purpose of the diversion years is that for once I get to decide myself and think for just myself.
I’ve promised to make the clan proud, but how exactly is for me to determine.
If it adds anything to the discussion, each of the tribes having their own autonomy has facilitated my business dealings with the Republic. Sure, i have to learn 7 different regulations and customs, however they are atually more clearly defined now.
Before it was all just one set of ‘regulations’ with a laundry list of exceptions and caveats. A nightmare to navigate really.
I was clearly being flippant, and you conveniently fail to address the actual argument a paragraph below what you quoted.
The Capusleer and Baseliner markets are seperate I agree, but as capsuleers, we employ baseliners, don’t we? There is a reason why I did not pursue trade numbers in my analysis, and instead went with production and CPI. They directly benefit from the capsuleer economy, and that wealth generation is then introduced into the planetary/baseliner economy. So yes, they are better off.
The parliamentary system was given to us by the Galente, and we chose to accept it. Yes, we were the ones that implemented the system, but we did not come up with the idea ourselves. At this point we are arguing semantics. My point stands.
You know, I actually wouldn’t be opposed to this.
Yes, it is a chemical reaction. But it is also the judging Spirit.
You know, the whole ‘Shakor is a dictator!’ and ‘He just wanted the power!’ arguements would be a whole lot more convincing if the Sanmatar had actually held on to the power. But instead he gave it up. The position of the Sanmatar is ceremonial, with no executive or legislative authority. he is Figure head, and nothing more.
Yes it was a coup. I will agree to that. But thank the spirits it happened. It was desperately needed.
It is such a tiny percentage as to be a rounding error.
I never claimed he was a dictator. I claimed he and Yun, between them, wanted power. And while the Sanmatar may not have direct executive power[1], that doesn’t mean he doesn’t wield considerable power all the same. He has the bully pulpit. He’s the guy who speaks to the people. And he’s also the guy who can go and have private chats with any and all of the Tribal Chiefs. He’s a power broker, and such brokerage is power.
It was not. The government had already been dissolved. New elections were already being planned. The vast majority of the people killed were not at the Parliamentary level, but “municipal and regional government officials”. The reorganization of the Republic’s top level of government didn’t change much in how those offices were selected or operated. And all the death squads did was prevent proper apprehension and interrogation.
If anything, in hindsight, it looks a lot more like covering their own tracks than exposing a massive plot.
As for failing to address ‘the actual argument a paragraph below’… you mean this?
‘The numbers don’t lie’. Give most of us a set of statistics, and we can find a way to read it that will tell you any lie you like. Numbers don’t lie, but they don’t challenge your interpretation, either. Capsuleer activity is a negligible part of the cluster’s economy. We may wield massive power for individuals, but no, we don’t amount to a hill of beans compared to the actual economies.
Don’t believe me? That’s fine. Half a cubic meter of frozen food is 90 ISK. If we call that a month’s worth of food for one person (which, I think, is a bit generous), then 1 person consumes about 3 ISK/day in food. So the Republic, at around 4 trillion people, consumes 12 trillion ISK/day just in food. That’s 4,380 trillion ISK per year, for the smallest of the four empires, just in food.
Food is not exactly a massive part of the budget when you compare it to things like energy, transportation, infrastructure, R&D, operating payroll for the entire government… even if it’s a full 1%, that means you’re still talking about 438 quadrillion ISK. We are nothing to that.
As for:
Please. Regional laws and the regulations within each Tribe are no different now than they were then. If anything, adding an additional layer (now you have to go from just dealing with ‘the government’ to ‘Tribe gov’t’ → ‘Republic gov’t’ means more bureaucracy, regulation, and paralysis.
The problem with how Shakor became to position of Sanmatar can be boiled down in a few examples:
Imagine if Tibus Heth had all the CEO’s killed to “ensure a new future for the Caldari people.”
Imagine if Federation president has the entire Senate killed each time they become incumbent.
Imagine if the Amarr… Oh wait nevermind.
I feel like I am quite late to the party. Late to the thread, late to the Tribes.
My kin and I were not in the Republic when all this happened; we were stuck on a planet in the Mandate while the Blooder Karsoth that the Amarr let remain in charge plotted our eradication. I suppose in a twisted way, one could argue that the Tribes would be even stronger if the Amarr had succeeded in killing the remaining Starkmanir: giving the Tribes a potent and immediate rallying cry.
However, thankfully, swift action was taken and the Blooder Karsoth didn’t get a chance to carry out his genocide. I am biased, I know. Though, maybe in the time of emergency, putting matters before a committee isn’t a wise choice. The captain of a ship is the Mistress after God for her crew. Combat is dictatorial by nature. For peacetime and peaceful matters, the Tribal Council retains their power to govern the Tribes, as it should be.
Which, brings me to the Elders. Oh dear. While the Elder Fleet certainly existed, and at a crucial time made an appearance, I question the existence of seven individual beings that are some mythic, spiritual entities that embody the tribes. I realize this is rich coming from one that worships an Almighty God, but the idea of someone being Stark, some ideal form seems strange to me. it seems even more strange that this person, he or she, has not revealed himself to my Tribe.
Our culture, our history, our identity was destroyed by Idonis Ardishapur, The Butcher. (Nauplius is a pale comparison, though no less evil.) I didn’t even know I was Starkmanir until after I was on a ship in Minmatar space. It wasn’t until several days after my liberation that I knew what the Starkmanir Tribe was and why we even mattered. I’m not alone. Maybe I am Stark: confused, lost, weeping over our past, unsure if we even have a future.
But, if there is a Stark, an Elder, a spiritual entity of the embodiment of our Tribe, they damned well have a responsibility to us. And that responsibility doesn’t entail hiding in God-knows-where.
Apologies, Arrendis, but refuting this is the best demonstration of my point.
There are two more tribes now. One returned, one resurrected. I realize that we haven’t had the time to enact such strange laws as some that I have heard of. (There’s apparently one town in Mikramurka where it is illegal to throw snowballs?) However, we do have a few of them where before we were slaves.
I feel like I’ve rambled a bit, but still managed to explain some of my points, even as off topic as some were.
Your input is always interesting for offering a more distanced and measured perspective. Thank you.
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like the kid that just moved up to the adult’s table when talking about the Tribes or Matari topics, and it’s nice to feel welcomed.
This only happens on certain Republic-ranging issues. In my experience, smaller matters such as trade and commerce work out more like this comment:
It’s now functionally possible to deal directly with the tribes. And for those particular clans who don’t wield the sort of power that gets them any notice in the Tribal Council, skipping that step makes things much more equitable, as we’re far more likely to have success through our own tribes than the overly bureaucratic Council.
Which segues into my actual opinion on this entire topic, despite all the agitating I’ve done here: We got it wrong with both Midular and Shakor. Power should have been given to the Tribes from the start, and the entire government still needs further decentralization. The Republic doesn’t need a prime minister or a Sanmatar, except perhaps as a ceremonial, powerless figurehead.
That’s supposedly what he is now.