Ship Balance Suggestions for PvP; Kiting vs Brawling

(Kiting vs Brawling suggestions on post 5)
Suggesting some balance improvements for 4 ships, that i feel are somewhat underdogs as far as PvP is concerned. This is purely from the point of view of solo/small gang pvp, which I usually engage in.

  1. Maelstrom: This ships bonuses seem to indicate that it was meant to be like the Hyperion, a good solo/small gang brawling battleship, however in its current condition its unable to fulfil that role. I suggest:
    ~ -1 Turret, +1 Mid Slot,
    ~ +50 Cpu, -1000 Pg
    ~ Ships bonus changed to 7.5% large projectile turret rate of fire, 20% per level to shield booster amount.
    ~ Ancillary buffs: +75m3 drone bay, +35% speed, -35% align time

Net effect of these changes would be going from 8 / .75 = 10.66 turrets to 7 / .625 = 11.2 turrets, for about a 5% increase in dps. It also gains a utility high for neuting those pesky orbiting frigates (similar to a Hyperion). A standard pvp fit would now be Mids = Mwd+scram+grap+web+3 slot tank, Lows = DmgCtrl+3 Gyros+fitting mod. The drone bay buff would actually allow the Maelstrom to carry 4 heavies alongwith a couple of set of lights. The speed and align time adjustments are to make it slightly faster and more manouverable than a Hyperion, given thats its a Minmitar ship. The shield booster change is to give it a better tank; given that the Hyperion can already fit a triple-rep T2 fit for 2k tank without Exile boosters or Asklepains, giving the Maelstrom a ~1k tank in a T2 fit shouldnt be OP in any respect. Post these changes the Maelstrom will still have a weaker tank than the Hyperion in a 1v1, but at least it will be more competitive as an option for a brawling battleship.

  1. Ashimmu and Cruor: Apart from the bonuses being difficult to use simultaneously in PvP, which would be more of a design / role / flavour kind of change, the main issue with these ships is that their dps is very low compared to other ships of the same range. I suggest raising their role bonus from 100% dmg to 150% dmg, to bring the dps more in line with pirate ships of their class. For the Ashimmu it means going from 3 * 2 = 6 turrets to 3 * 2.5 = 7.5 turrets, or a 25% dps increase, which is quite reasonable given the dps of its peers. For the Cruor it means going from 2 * 2 = 4 to 2 * 2.5 = 5, again a 25% dps increase.

  2. Republic Fleet Firetail: This poor little ship has always been the underdog of navy faction frigs for as long as i can recall. The fed navy comet excels in dps, the hookbill in control, and the slicer in range/kiting. The Rff doesnt mange to stand out in any role that would be useful for pvp. Again while iā€™m not going to suggest role changes, a plain simple dps improvement in the ship to make it at least match its peers in a 1v1 would be good. Changing from 25% dmg per level to 35% per level would be a decent buff I think. From a role point of view, it could be given a speed buff to make it a fast-ship catcher (minmitar are usually fast shippies, and their faction frig being the fastest would be lore-friendly as well). The firetail could also use a slight hp buff, it has the weakest tank of all faction frigs atm.

Cheers,
Solarus

3 Likes

solid suggestions, iā€™d love to fly the Ashimmu more - i think the Firetail is used for scram kiting

faction battleships should also get some love

1 Like

I think Firetail fairly balanced as is, id like to see Comet brought down a little bit.

3 Likes

That balances are great! Also it will be better if they buffed lasers in terms of dps and buff Amarr Ships to be more useful in solo and ganks instead of being fleet shipsā€¦Especially the Apocalypseā€¦Man this ship is treated like a Pathetic kid in solo and gank pvpā€¦Also they must consider to make shields more solid tank as in this game all prefers amror than shields cā€™mon CCP some stuff in your game are barely even usedā€¦Like Raven Navy fitted with Torps also like the ship which is extinct named the Armaggedon Navy Issue. CCP please make all your stuff useable as some ships are somehow unused and thatā€™s not fair for a game that u call ā€œBalancedā€.

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On the issue of Kiting vs Brawling:

Overall the balance of Kiting and Brawlers should be that kiters (by definition) have longer range weapons, to hit brawlers from far away, but brawlers should have faster speed to catch said kiters, so that there is a tradeoff for both kinds of players. Brawlers can catch kiters, but during the chase, they are taking damage, and if there are multiple kiters in a gang, then potentially from multiple sources. So Brawlers need to have the tank to actually take the damage and still be able to catch and kill the kiters. Kiters need to be slow enough to actually be caught in a reasonable time by said brawlers, to actually make the tradeoff viable for both kinds of players. To this end i propose the following changesā€¦

  1. Garmur / Orthrus / Barghest:
    ~ Warp Scram bonus range removed (i.e. bonus range only for Warp disruptors)
    ~ -15% base speed

These ships are the ultimate kiters, with long range disrupters, and very long range weapons with good application. On top of that, they can fit longer range scrams to prevent any brawling ship from ever catching them and landing a scram on them. This leads to the current meta with snaked and blinged garmurs/orthrus being uncatchable and unkillable. No frigate can catch them to land a scram, since a faction scram with garmur bonus overheated can stop any chaserā€™s MWD from 20km off, all the while keeping point on him and applying dps. So unless the garmur pilot makes a ā€˜mistakeā€™ and stays on field too long against long range damage, thereā€™s literally no way to kill such kiting ships. To even the field for brawling ships, these kiting ships need to lose their scram bonus, so they can at least be caught by a well fit Dramielā€¦ and there is at least some skilled counterplay to these ships.

  1. Triglavian ships:
    ~ -30% Speed
    ~ +10% Hitpoints

Trig ships are faster than most other ships of their class, while also having great damage and excellent projection. These three factors combined make them very good at kiting. I propose to have their speed cut down and brought down the level of other ships of their class (looking at Kikimora, Vedmak, Drekavac, Leshak). This would still keep these ships as very strong brawlers, with their scaling up damage, and still make it very difficult to kite these ships with their long range weapons and good dps. However it will prevent these ships from being kiters themselves, instead making them great brawling ships with great anti-kiting weapons.

On a side note, it really makes no sense for a faction destroyer (Kikimora), to be 35% faster than T3Ds in ā€œPropulsionā€ mode?? This really shouldnā€™t be happeningā€¦

Regards,
Solarus

3 Likes

No, they should not. The ONLY very reason why some donā€™t like kiters that much is that they are faster than brwalers to stay out of range.

2 Likes

One thing you failed or on purpose to mention is all Trig ship have the worse shield HP, to the point that the Leshak has shield HP almost equal to the best cruiser.

Due to this they are in the top 1/3 in armour hp and speed, there are better ships you just need to have a proper look.

I agree. It makes the proteus, arazu and Lachesis - even the navy maulus kinda useless. More tank, better tank (shields), capless weapons (missiles) and they get the warp disruptor bonus Gallente recons get, plus their fast as hell. Price difference between the Orthrus and the Lach/Arazu - almost the same.

No damp bonuses, but honestly, they donā€™t need it, and sometimes they bring a painter which makes them crazy dangerous. I 100% agree, that bonus needs to go. I think they need something more piratey - like a sensor strength buff per level so their hard as heck to jam or something like that.

On the subject of speed - I donā€™t know how to feel about this one. Speed is a pirate thing just in general, and if ya take it, you take a lot. I agree that I hate dealing with these vessels, but they arenā€™t my play style, so I"m bent about it. However more a lot of people I think that thereā€™s a lot of validity to their actions in the game and I wouldnā€™t view it as inappropriate to have a fast missile boat. Iā€™ll hate dealing with it, but I can accept itā€™s a valid thing to want. Caracals are a pain too, and this isnā€™t that much different when you remove the warp disruptor range bonus. It just happens to be stronger, tankier, and hit harder than a caracal. That I can live with.

Good points though. +1

This is true, and I hate kiting lol BUt there are places in this game where a Kiter is at a serious disadvantage, and that kinda levels the playing field.

1 Like

Where is kiting at a disadvantage?

  • Fighting projection, BNIs can have 200k EHP and fit rails to hit kiters anywhere they can shoot at you while they have 20k EHP

  • Fighting a fleet with logi and control vs a glass cannon setup - a rapier means kiters have to leave the grid

  • fighting anchored fleets - a balled up blob of ships create a death zone around them - single players piloting their own ship will eventually make mistakes and get separated, they can easily be focused down