Ship mining & manufacturing maths - help please!

[Ogeko_Nightwolf]

Hello
I have to admit I am no Einstein, just trying to get by in Eden

So after some career missions, SOE epic arc, agent pew-pew missions, exploration, and whatnot, I need to upgrade my space hardware to make progress like other exemplary Eden citizens.

So I decided it would be fun to build my next ship from a scratch (blueprints, that is) - mining, manufacturing some number of ships, keeping one to myself, and selling some to buy my fittings. And when I get blown-up, I can always mine some more and get my ship back. A sort of insurance.

Very nice people of Eden donated me some fantastic BPCs and I started grinding with my ol’ good Venture. As advised, I also started to do some calculations in my spreadsheets. (It’s fun - I think of it like of Sudoku game).

After initial tests and calculations I got shocked - I actually would loose money by selling a completed Thrasher instead of ore needed for its manufacturing

Please correct me. Let’s take a Thrasher. Its median-low price is 800,000 ISK (after taxes etc). I need to make at least 2 runs to asteroids just to get Pyerite for it. And for a 5000m3 of Condensed Scordite hold (1 run) I get at least over 400,000 ISK (immediate sale to NPC). But it’s just one of the four needed minerals so I will need to make many, many more runs. So far the numbers tell me that selling 2 x 5000m3 of Scordite would make me more profit in less time than selling a Thrasher?

And instead of building my dream ship ‘with my own hands’, I should do something else for profit and just buy it?

Did I mention I am no Einstein? So please advice me where I am making a mistake(s) here. How to manufacture a ship to make some profit?

P.S. Calculated buying minerals for manufacturing - again, the costs are higher than of a Thrasher ship

P.S.P.S. I know for profit you need at least a mining barge, not a Venture, but I am just doing a mathematical - and survival - exercise here

P.S.P.S.P.S. On the side note, so far at this level the WH exploration is much more profitable and thrilling than mining.

P.S.P.S.PSSPSPSPS. No, I don’t play for ISK but I want to start doing some higher level stuff, combat, events, the real fun - for that you need quite advanced military hardware. It’s just that I am trying to get financial traction within Eden (one could always buy and sell Plex but it’s no fun, no challenge, and would brake down for me the Eden role-playing experience).

Thank you in advance for your time

[Solonius_Rex]

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

(immediate sale to NPC).

Quick correction.

There is no sale to NPC. You cannot sell to NPCs in this game. The people who are buying in the market, are actually real players.

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

And instead of building my dream ship ‘with my own hands’, I should do something else for profit and just buy it?

Yes. You should just sell the ore if you are going to end up making more money.

But before you do that, i would double check the sell price vs the buy price.

Its just like a Bid/Ask price for stock. You will always buy ore at a higher price than selling it, and you need to be able to know the exact price it will net you for selling on the market. This is something that you can only figure out by actually looking at the price that people have buy-orders for, at the trade hub.

Simply looking at the blueprint and hovering over each material icon, will not actually tell you the actual price you will be able to sell the materials for. Neither will right clicking and “Buy all”, as that is the price to buy the materials, and not the price they are sold at.

Generally, a good place to check is Jita, as it is the main trade-hub for new eden. If you check, it may turn out that you will make more money building the ship than selling the ore.

EDIT:
Evepraisal is a very good website to check what the current buy and sell orders are at Jita.
Here, scordite for example. This is 5000m3(or close to it) of scordite:

As you can see, the total sell price is 633,327.00 ISK, but the total buy price is 586,994.13 ISK.

So if you were to buy 5000m3 of scordite, it will cost you 633K, but if you were to sell it on the market, you would only get 586K.

Blueprints will usually show you the average price it costs to buy the materials. So it will always be higher than the actual amount you can sell the materials for.

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

P.S. Calculated buying minerals for manufacturing - again, the costs are higher than of a Thrasher ship

They tend to be around the mark.

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

P.S.P.S. I know for profit you need at least a mining barge, not a Venture, but I am just doing a mathematical - and survival - exercise here

Ventures make plenty of profit. Everything you mine is profit, technically, as the venture itself can be free, and the modules are cheap.

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

P.S.P.S.P.S. On the side note, so far at this level the WH exploration is much more profitable and thrilling than mining.

Yes.

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

P.S.P.S.PSSPSPSPS. No, I don’t play for ISK but I want to start doing some higher level stuff, combat, events, the real fun - for that you need quite advanced military hardware. It’s just that I am trying to get financial traction within Eden (one could always buy and sell Plex but it’s no fun, no challenge, and would brake down for me the Eden role-playing experience).

Not necessarily.

There are plenty of corps that hand out free ships to its members, especially new ones. Not to mention, if you go as a group, not only is it more fun, but you will learn more stuff, and it will decrease the chances of dying.

Just have to find a good corp.

[Ogeko_Nightwolf]

@Solonius_Rex

Quick correction.
There is no sale to NPC. You cannot sell to NPCs in this game. The people who are buying in the market, are actually real players.

Thank you for the correction - I am shocked now

@Solonius_Rex

Generally, a good place to check is Jita, as it is the main trade-hub for new eden. If you check, it may turn out that you will make more money building the ship than selling the ore.

Thank you for all your remarks and advices! Because I started to wonder what’s the point in manufacturing ordinary stuff if one can buy it cheaper?

@Solonius_Rex

Evepraisal is a very good website to check what the current buy and sell orders are at Jita.

Thank you!

@Solonius_Rex

They tend to be around the mark.

Yes… but what’s the point if there is no gain? Pilots are making huge ISK from this somehow but for me numbers still don’t add up. I will check your Jita advices, maybe it will get better, thanks a lot!

@Solonius_Rex

Ventures make plenty of profit. Everything you mine is profit, technically, as the venture itself can be free, and the modules are cheap.

I Ventures - they are versatile and cheap which is great for WH mining.

@Solonius_Rex

Just have to find a good corp.

Firstly I have to grow up to learn what I want to be (Actually, I know - I want to roam unknown space and be able to deal with problems when they arise, a sort of personal Star Trek thing). On the other hand, I met and am in contact with many great, kind people (from different corps)

Thank you very much for all your time and advices! Much appreciated! Fly safe o7

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

Factors like skills and standings come into play for lowering prices. You have an accounting skill that lowers your sales tax. Broker and advanced broker relations if you create orders instead of selling immediately, then you have the standings with the corporation of where you are trading.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

Yes… but what’s the point if there is no gain? Pilots are making huge ISK from this somehow but for me numbers still don’t add up. I will check your Jita advices, maybe it will get better, thanks a lot!

Some players can and do make good profit by buying cheaply from other regions of new eden, then using that to build stuff.

Others, create corp buyback and buy at 90, 95% of jita buy, netting them a lot of profit.

Generally, if you have good skills and a good place to reprocess ore, you can usually make more by reprocessing than you would by selling ore. Minerals that have been reprocessed from ore, is then used to make ships, because its easier to move ships than it is to move their equivalent in minerals.

[Ogeko_Nightwolf]

Thank you very much! I am training most of these skills - but as now I understand all manufacturing or trading profits are fairly slim, and all comes done to fine-tuned logistics, experience, and volume.
Thanks a lot for your advices!

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

be smart of where you get the materials from, IE, mining, or buying low and selling high.

[Ogeko_Nightwolf]

@Solonius_Rex

Some players can and do make good profit by buying cheaply from other regions of new eden, then using that to build stuff.

That already requires lots of experience, skills, and investment - fair enough. Then there are others who are investing into ganking such industrialists. Eden is amazing!

@Solonius_Rex

Others, create corp buyback and buy at 90, 95% of jita buy, netting them a lot of profit.

I will try to look into this - not sure how it works. (It’s not my thing but I’m just curious)

@Solonius_Rex

Generally, if you have good skills and a good place to reprocess ore, you can usually make more by reprocessing than you would by selling ore. Minerals that have been reprocessed from ore, is then used to make ships, because its easier to move ships than it is to move their equivalent in minerals.

Interesting. I am just guessing that it’s a lot of jumps from such places to any reasonable high-sec trade hubs. Will look into friendly corps like these
It all get me curious and adventurous. I just wish the built-in map was a bit easier to explore (like in Elite Dangerous) so instead of travelling blindly and randomly I could do some better informed expeditions to the fringes

Sincere gratitude for your advices and lessons! Fly safe o7

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

@Ogeko_Nightwolf

a lot of jumps from such places to any reasonable high-sec trade hubs. Will look into friendly corps like these

Reprocessing, with zero cost, requires getting a NPC corp with modified standings of 6.67. Example, Jita 4-4 is covered by Caldari Navy. So if you want to reprocess at Jita, or any station that is controlled by Caldari Navy, you need your standing with CN, at 6.67 with modified standings.

[Ogeko_Nightwolf]

@Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras

be smart of where you get the materials from, IE, mining, or buying low and selling high.

That’s what I am trying to get my head around - how it all works. Eden’s economics are so fine-tuned that a lot of experience is needed to find a niche of your liking. That in itself is an amazing discovery process. But it all needs heavy investments too, including a hefty safety fund when something goes supernova. So right now this second part is my goal, though it’s a closed circle - to progress one needs to invest, but to have those investment funds one needs to progress. Stuck!

Thank you for your tips!