Why reprocess ore and why bother manufacturing ships?

(Kilon Alios) #1

Why bother reprocessing ore if there is always a loss ?

I am trying manufacturing my own Oracles and after using online calculators like this one


Best case scenario shows a 2 mil profit , so naturally I try to mine and reprocess my ore but still see that I am losing money.

Am I mission something here, is manufacturing suppose to use so crappy illogical mechanics ? In real life making stuff suppose to be far cheaper than their sale value or else why bother making them at all ?

So for me something to cost more to make than to sell looks insane

Am I missing something here ?

(Linus Gorp) #2

Skills and implants? A bonused facility?
You’re also competing against the
crowd. They love to build ships. Ships are so awfully overproduced it ain’t funny anymore.

(Qia Kare) #3

There are a lot of variables that could affect your ability to turn a profit. There are skills that improve refining efficiency, the level of research of your bpos, but one aspect I can imagine that is often overlooked is the SCI.

SCI stands for something like ‘System Cost Index’ and it is the rate that the NPCs will tax you for an industry job. The more jobs of a type that are run in a system, the higher the SCI goes for that type of job. High SCI systems also tend to be convenient systems to manufacture in because of their proximity to trade hubs, resources, or other factors that the general population have taken note of.

Also obscure, different facilities will have different reprocessing base efficiencies, with the best facilities being found in nullsec, and lowsec being nearly as good. Highsec player facilities are a distant third, but can still be substantially better than NPC stations. It pays to shop around to see where you can get the most out of your raw materials.

It is not necessary to make an item out of whole cloth, though. You can break the manufacturing down into stages. Identify stages where you can turn a profit. If you can buy ore and reprocess it into something more valuable, do so. If the minerals and job tax are cheaper for building your hull than buying it, then build it, otherwise sell those materials and buy it.

Sometimes manufacturing will profitable. Sometimes it won’t be. Identifying the difference is the stuff of successful business. Keep a sharp eye on the market, and fly safe.

(Eternus8lux8lucis) #4

The changes are old mechanics changes in high sec to recreate the reprocessing curve. Now everyone, even in the best facilities with the best skills incurs a “loss” like in the real world. You never do get all of what you refine out, even gold bricks are stamped 99.999% for this reason.

Building T1 ships is almost always at or only near profit. Been this way for many years. Lots of reasons for it. Most of which include cheaper supply or opportunity costs. Its ironic but use it rather than complain about it. Your mind and your Eve time will be better spent on other things.

(Tipa Riot) #5

When I fire up the site with the Oracle, I’m getting a healthy profit of 8M per piece at Jita sell prices. Fully researched BPC/BPO plus 3% ME bonused complex in a decent highsec system of course.

So yes, you overlook something.

EDIT: Fully researched Oracle BPCs you can get for 165K per run.

EDIT2: Unless you can reprocess at a rate higher than 75%, selling the compressed ore and buying the minerals is usually cheaper.

(Max Deveron) #6

Hey idiot give it a rest already…

and yes minerals are “free” (mechanically speaking it costs nothing to “make” minerals)

getting the stuff to make minerals how ever does have a cost.

(Zircon Dasher) #7

Tipa hit the nail on its head.

You might wish to read and interact over at the Industry Forum on these kinds of questions.

General Discussion is a well known place to troll and shitpost

(Coralas) #8

You can build 120 oracles in roughly 24 hours, not logged on with 1 character. Anytime an individual type of hull shows a lot of profit, more manufacturers jump in and build them.

(Coralas) #9

Actually those people can’t supply enough ships to keep the market satisfied because they don’t scale very well.

(Piugattuk) #10

As an Indy here you should not be looking purely at numbers, why do you want a 2nd job which you don’t receive RL pay.

People can’t seem to wrap themselves around the fact of the need to put fun first, I have every ship I want and then some, I lack for nothing as far as mods, now if you are after the officer mods or expensive fits because you like bling then you are going to be chasing this instead of the fun.

Building anything t-1 is going to be low profit if at all, bulk sales, as long as when you sale it’s not ridiculously low then sell it, take the ISK and buy what you want, then buy more, after a while you will have so much you need corporate hangers just to stay organized, have fun, don’t sweat a few ISK.

(Orren Grund) #11

At a guess it also depends on where you sell. If you’re competing with the big boys in the big markets, well, there will be cut-throat competition. Somewhere off the path but reasonably close to where people lose ships could well see better profits (but possibly more risks too if you need to move stuff). I don’t seem to have any problems passing off the occasional T1 frigate/destroyer hull for a moderate profit in a, shall we say, less popular high-sec area. It’s reasonably close to some Faction War systems though, and close to a pipe towards NPC Null so always someone returning without a ship…

Yeah, I’m not going to get filthy rich (but it’s still cash) or outbid someone who does it for a living - but he’s not there.

(Memphis Baas) #12

As the others have explained, the answer is because it’s a game.

First of all, industry by itself is about making things, not about profit. There are lots of manufacturers that make ships and gear for their corp, and out there in 0.0 space with all the wars going on, making lots of ships is important. Buying the materials you need, and selling the stuff you make, both of these are governed by the trade skills not by the manufacture skills.

The refining “loss” is to encourage people to specialize into industry, to train some lengthy skills, to invest ISK in refinery citadels, etc. Otherwise these things would not be justified.

And finally, the entire economy is player-based. Which means, if you don’t make a profit on Oracles, then don’t make Oracles. Again, profit is determined by effort you put into trading: finding cheaper sources of minerals, selling your ships not at Jita, but closer to the war zones where they’re needed, so you can charge a higher price than Jita, arranging bulk sales with one of the entities involved in the wars, etc. Ore has no purpose except for to be refined into minerals; if you see buy orders for ore that means other players value it, and can get more minerals out of it (60%, 70%) to justify that price.

It’s true that the game does not have branding. Part of why a Ferrari costs so much is because of the name, but in this game it doesn’t matter who you are, you’re still making the exact same ship as anyone else. No brand. The game also doesn’t have support for value-added services (warranties, for example), where the seller could offer something “extra” along with the basic ship, to justify a higher price. These are game limitations and you have to deal with them.

What you’re finding out is that High-Sec space is a newbie zone. It’s the newbie zone in all respects: rewards from missions, quality of asteroids, (high) taxes on facilities, overcrowding, etc. You’re supposed to get out of High-Sec and specialize into industry and trading (train skills) to make the big profits (or any profits). You’ve just discovered CCP’s “incentive” to get people out of High-Sec.

And it mostly doesn’t work; you probably will rather quit that move out. That’s why it’s so overcrowded.

EDIT: “It looks insane” because there are no NPC vendors to buy your Oracles at a profit. You’re not guaranteed gameplay. We hate the god damn Oracles right now.

(Hir Miriel) #13

A similar thing happens in real life. For example try making your own shirt, you will be able to buy a factory made shirt much cheaper than you can make it. So people who make their own clothing are mostly doing it for the fun of making their own. Money wise they would be better off getting a low paying job and use that money to pay for their clothes, which is probably why not many people know how to make their own clothes now.

So, just do whatever you have the most fun with.

(Teckos Pech) #14

Except opportunity cost. You could sell the minerals you mine, thus that forgone revenue is your opportunity cost. Also, your time is valuable too. If you are spending several hours to mine the necessary minerals that have an opportunity cost equal to simply buying said minerals outright…well now you’ve wasted your time too.

(Eternus8lux8lucis) #15

/RP mode on/

But we are immortal demigods!!! What is mere mortal time to the likes of us?!?! You speak like one of those planet side slave serfs that simply get old and die!!

/RP mode off/

(Teckos Pech) #16

If only this were true IRL. :stuck_out_tongue:

But sure, if somebody wants to mine their minerals, research a BPO and build their own ship literally from the ground up…go for it. If that is your idea of fun in game, works for me. Heck I can’t argue, I make my own beef tallow (mainly because I can’t buy it…but still).

(Dani Murano) #17

Best case shows 7.3 million profit for me.
The biggest part of the profit is the ME from the blueprint. If you dont have the 10%, you will lose a lot of money.

And the manufacturing system does not have a crappy illogical mechanics. It is all about supply and demand.
It is only some illocial player that make it look stupid. But these do not offer enough supply to the market to make any difference, or they do not last long enough.

(Issler Dainze) #18

You build it into ships because its an easy way to sell what you mine. You have to be clever about what you build, pick something that makes you a profit and will sell quickly because there is a time value of money. But anything over break even means you sold your ore at market.

(system) #19

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