Should Noir be stripped of Aidonis?

I have read the latest publication of Dr. Felisenne Olvenar, who researched in details the personality of the infamous Federal Navy Admiral Alexander Noir, who rammed Malkalen station with his supercarrier, killing multiple advocates of peace from both sides, notably former Ishukone CEO Otro Gairushi.

The author tells us, that Noir’s actions towards peace were just a deception to advance Federal’s military goals. And, in general, I do agree with these conclusions, as they match my own feeling about Gallente and their “peace” attempts.

I do not agree, however, that Noir should be stripped of his statue. And it is not just about Noir. With the terror act the Federal Navy has committed under his command wasn’t just his own operation, but also everyone who were following his orders and even possible undercover agent on the station itself. Moreover, we shall always remember that this terror act the Gallentes have committed in Malkalen did not start the war, even if reducing greatly voices for peace from both sides: the war was started with overall criminal gallente racism against Caldari and attacks on people of Caldari descent and sites of Caldari significance all over occupied by Federal invaders at that time Caldari Prime. It was Fioritan’s decision to segregate our people by bloodlines or nationality. It was gallente security police, who started beating and killing Caldari protesters instead of protecting them from racism coming from gallentean citizens…

Noir was just one man, who has expressed his feeling about us, but also feelings of oh so many people from the other side of the border, of people who started the war after his death. He was a perfect example of Gallentean: deceptive, hateful, dishonorable, genocidal.

Aidonis reward itself represents Gallente desire of peace - the same peace Noir was trying to deceive us with just to backstab later. The same peace back in the day Aidonis was promoting at the end of the first war, that ended with Caldari Prime being left in the hands of foreign occupants, who have bombed it, slaughtering billions of civilians. That peace we signed in YC12, that shameful treaty, that was celebrated so widely and was overall accepted - it was nothing, but Gallentean’s attempt to legalize their conquest and oppression of Caldari Prime.

The picture of Noir with the statue in his hands gives us the perfect feeling of what does the peace means, when brought to you in Gallente hands.

I am pretty sure that all of you already heard from certain Gallente speakers who were addressing us, Caldari, about necessity of the peace. And while they do that with one hand, their other hand is deep in our guts, torturing thousands of prisoners of war, locking them in exploding cells, starving them, beating and raping, making life of the people worse than the lowest of slaves in the Amarr Empire - especially recent ones, Minmatar prisoners of war (Nauplius excluded - he’s a Blooder). While they call for peace, Gallente pseudo-rogue squads commit genocide in Caldari colonies in Black Rise.

Even Tibus Heth, who probably was the most militant of us towards Gallente aggression, signed peace after he liberated Caldari Prime from gallentean occupants - simply we don’t need from gallente more than what they stole from us. And even that treaty was violated five years later with infamous Operation Highlander, atrocity committed by Gallenteans that even exceeds their bombing of the same planet two hundred years ago.

Leave the man his statue, he deserved it by being properly “peaceful” Gallentean. Leave it, so we all know what does gallentean version of peace means. Leave it, so we will never fall for gallente deceptions ever again, looking at the picture of the man with Aidonis in his hand next to the picture of his Nyx ramming the station.

I’m linking this old discussion for reference: Alexander Noir
I might come back to this discussion for additional comments later.


Something that’s been bothering me for years:
There’s something among the so-called gleamed information from the Jove observatories. It caught my attention because it seemed out of place among the other bits recovered from the observatories due to it being seemingly rather insignificant. It’s a recording of what sounds like a man saying “Thanks sweetie, but that’s all right. I’ll only be a few minutes.” The recording is dated YC 110, the year of the attack on the Ishukone HQ.

In an effort to determine why this seemingly insignificant recording was stored, I had a program compare the voice with those of public figures at the time, and it did not take long to find a match: The program discovered that there’s a 99.99% chance that the voice was that of Alexander Noir.

This only caused me to be intrigued further into why this was stored. Although it explained part of the significance, due to Noir’s role in the cluster…of all the things Noir had said during his life, surely this is not the most significant? Or am I missing something?
Also, I’ve not been able to find a match of this recording with any public recordings of Noir, or anyone else’s for that matter.

I’ve been wanting to speak with Noir’s widow about this, as I’m assuming she is the most likely the person to whom the speaker is speaking to, in order to see if maybe she could shed some light on why this was deemed significant enough to be stored. But so far I’ve been able to get into contact with her. Perhaps she’s unwilling, which I can understand, considering the events blamed on her late husband, and the many questions she must have been asked by the press and others in the aftermath. Perhaps she is not allowed to speak about this, or coerced not to do so.
Anyway, it looks like this will continue to bother me for a long time.

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I, honestly, see very little significance in that. I mean… I could draw 3-4 theories about that, one darker than another, but… is there a merit in that? I am pretty sure we are all very different in our homes than how we represent ourselves to our enemies… or even to friends in public.

I’m wondering, since the existence of clonejacking is now no longer in the realms of fiction, whether there’s now some more traction to the theory that Noir was clonejacked before the Malkalen incident?

If his infomorph had been fully decoded, couldn’t the voice that Che heard be a piece of memory? How it got from place to place is a different, equally strange story, no doubt.


That’s a bit wild theory, Mr. Tuulinen.
Even if clonejacking was the case, why Adm. Noir?
Who could hate Caldari more than Gallente?

Could it be Gurista, because CEO Gairushi was their member before and didn’t follow one of their orders? But then why would they use gallente for that, even guristas wouldn’t stain their hands with kakku, if they want to kill anyone, they do it themselves, not via proxy.

It certainly couldn’t be any rival Mega, CPD or Navy, since that dishonorable disregard to Caldari lives is not acceptable in Caldari society, especially for Provists who built at that time their ideology on preventing Caldari blood from spilling.

Minmatars - that would be quite wild guess, maybe we hate each other, but not to that degree.

Could it be other gallentean nationalist, say one of those who were writing to “Exterminate all Caldari” on Caldari Prime? That’s probably the most real candidate on clonejacking Admiral - I just don’t understand why would the go that extent, considering there were still plenty on Caldari inside their own borders as it was shown with racial attacks on Caldari later on Caldari Prime? Well, Adm. Noir attack really looked like “Extermination” attempt - attack on civilian target by a military vessel, which gallente are quite infamous for.

As a conclusion: we possibly could build a theory that Adm. Noir was clonejacked, that he could be a Triglavian or Drifter, and bring dozens of even crazier explanations, but… do we need it?

I think there is a higher probability of the explanation to be correct if it is the most simple using the minimal amount of assumptions. And in that case it’s like this: Adm. Noir did it by himself, just because he was like that. A backstabbing civilian-murdering gallentean, who tried to represent himself as “peaceful” to get closer while holding knife behind his back.

Someone who had an interest in igniting a conflict would be a guess.

And whom that would be if not Gallente?
When Tibus Heth promised to deliver us from the humiliation of gallente influence, how did Gallente react on that? Did they just accept our wish to not having any sort of dependency and relation with them?

No, they replied with “Exterminate all Caldari”.

Maybe someone whose entire popularity was built upon anti-Gallente patriotism?

Prove beyond all doubt that the Gallente are not capable of peaceful dialogue. As a bonus, get rid of Gariushi.

So, wait wait wait… this tribal actually thinks that it were Caldari who blew up Caldari station to start war with Gallente?


I mean, on one hand I could now start explaining in details how that position is so ignorant, but on the other… the same tribal was in public claiming that other people were… my copies, or clonejacks, or alts - how people with Capsuleer Dementia Syndrome tend to claim.

Maybe you will be so kind to make a separate thread for your personal ultimately important and “super intelligent” conspiracy theories. I am almost sure we all might be incredibly delighted (maybe) to hear them!

And thus, with a single post, the discussion went away from an actual discourse into the land of ad hominem.

And you claim to be a logical person, Kimmie.

Maybe you shall apologize first for your earlier ad hominems if you don’t like them, including to all other people whom you were calling were me, then you wouldn’t have heard ad hominems from me.

If you didn’t, it means you’re fine with them, why are you playing this comedy now?

No apologies will be issued and none are demanded from you - likewise, none will be accepted or cared about.

This is about the conduct of civilized discussion. I answered a question with a suggestion - you replied with insults.

Whether you justify this by some previous grievance or not, this is not what this topic is about.

Your suggestion was insult of Caldari people.

Do not try to weasel your way out of that argument, girl. If we all took offense to uncomfortable suggestions, we’d get absolutely nowhere as a species.

The suggestion here is plain as day, if uncomfortable to some - that this event very much benefitted Tibus Heth. It removed a dangerous political opponent, got him a clean road to power.

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Look, you insult Tibus Heth, you insult me, you insult other people. It’s quite logical I insult you back. If you don’t like people taking offenses from your words, really, have you tried to not be offensive for a change? It’s not that hard, really.

Now, how it could benefit Tibus Heth? That’s really surreal, since ideas of Tibus Heth were to save Caldari blood from spilling. Murder of so many people simply could not benefit Tibus Heth, since it was against what he was standing for. Back in the day Ishukone wasn’t opposing itself to the State as it is now. And as a political opponent to Tibus Heth Mr. Gariushi was positioning only himself: he considered Tibus Heth as an opponent, not Tibus Heth him. Look, for example, what he said about Gariushi after the latter denounced Heth in his hate speech:

I welcome Otro Gariushi’s initiative to calm the situation on Caldari Prime, and praise his peaceful approach to managing our relationship with the Gallente Federation. I look forward to hearing the details of this agreement, and wish to contribute to the diplomatic process any way that I can to provide the best possible outcome for the Caldari people.

We also know that Tibus Heth really cared little about power, otherwise he wouldn’t let CEP overthrown him in YC115. He literally did nothing to save his position.

I don’t frankly care if you take offense or not - it’s your choice to be offended. And no, it’s far from logical to go insult for perceived insult.

The words of Gariushi are not Hate Speech. They do not call for a genocide, they call for violence to cease. They did, in fact, cause the situation to move towards peace.

While Heth’s words at that time may sound pleasant and supportive of Gariushi, let’s not forget his address when he became the CEO of Caldari Constructions.

He called the Gallente an enemy and blamed the failures of the State leadeship on them. His speech carries a strong, nationalistic undertone.

There is no concrete proof to accuse Tibus Heth. If there was and if it was in my hands, I would likely either accuse him and show it or give it to the appropriate parties. The situation created there however, was very convenient for him.

It doesn’t matter if someone is taking offenses or not. What does matter is behaving offensively. Accidental offenses happen - but respectful people who don’t mean offense simply bring apologies. And offensive people blame offended in being offended. Just because they’re sick amoral morons.

They’re pretty much full with hatred towards Tibus Heth.

What I really liked about Tibus Heth, he was speaking about things as they are. Yes, there’s nothing wrong in calling an enemy as enemy. And he earned merit to speak against corrupt leadership, since back then he exactly replaced a corrupt leadership of Caldari Constructions.


I’m sorry, but you seem to be missing something here. Hate Speech is not “Full of Hatred towards” - for a statement to qualify as Hate Speech, it has to be demeaning on the basis of their attributes - such as ethnicity, disability or sexual orientation.

Gariushi denounced Tibus Heth because of his actions, not his origins or views. This is not hate speech - this is denouncing. Pure, plain and simple. He publicly declared that Heth’s actions are a dangerous path that will deepen the rift between the two empires.

There’s nothing hateful in exposing the methods of your adversary.

Heth’s words earlier were dangerously close to calling for a genocide. There is plenty wrong with calling an entire people an enemy and attributing negative traits to them. It’s broadly targeting basing on a singular attribute, in this case, nation.

And that is Hate Speech.

All my what. Well, hatred of ethnicity I’ve seen a lot with Gallente infamous “Exterminate all Caldari”.
Hatred of… disability? How is that even possible? Is it a minmatar phenomenon?
Hatred of sexual orientation? Well, I guess orienting yourself in a sexual manner pretty much DESERVES you hatred since open sexuality is simply disgusting and shall never be accepted in public.

But in either case, whatever. Mr. Gariushi was quite hateful against Mr. Heth in his speech.

This denouncing was full of hatred.

You could do it in a hateful or respectful way. What did Mr. Gariushi was a hateful speech, not a respectful polemic that would show that Mr. Heth was wrong.

Unlike Gallente words, Heth never advocated for genocide. Tibus Heth’s ideals were to deliver us from disgrace of gallente influence, he never asked to “exterminate” gallente like gallente were asking to “exterminate Caldari”. Even after liberating Caldari Prime Tibus Heth has stopped the war instead of going to “bombard Gallente Prime” which he certainly could do with the fleet we have assembled and could occupy the second planet just as fast. He just wanted to protect Caldari from Gallente, make us strong, not “punish them”.