Should Noir be stripped of Aidonis?

Look, you insult Tibus Heth, you insult me, you insult other people. It’s quite logical I insult you back. If you don’t like people taking offenses from your words, really, have you tried to not be offensive for a change? It’s not that hard, really.

Now, how it could benefit Tibus Heth? That’s really surreal, since ideas of Tibus Heth were to save Caldari blood from spilling. Murder of so many people simply could not benefit Tibus Heth, since it was against what he was standing for. Back in the day Ishukone wasn’t opposing itself to the State as it is now. And as a political opponent to Tibus Heth Mr. Gariushi was positioning only himself: he considered Tibus Heth as an opponent, not Tibus Heth him. Look, for example, what he said about Gariushi after the latter denounced Heth in his hate speech:

I welcome Otro Gariushi’s initiative to calm the situation on Caldari Prime, and praise his peaceful approach to managing our relationship with the Gallente Federation. I look forward to hearing the details of this agreement, and wish to contribute to the diplomatic process any way that I can to provide the best possible outcome for the Caldari people.

We also know that Tibus Heth really cared little about power, otherwise he wouldn’t let CEP overthrown him in YC115. He literally did nothing to save his position.

I don’t frankly care if you take offense or not - it’s your choice to be offended. And no, it’s far from logical to go insult for perceived insult.

The words of Gariushi are not Hate Speech. They do not call for a genocide, they call for violence to cease. They did, in fact, cause the situation to move towards peace.

While Heth’s words at that time may sound pleasant and supportive of Gariushi, let’s not forget his address when he became the CEO of Caldari Constructions.

He called the Gallente an enemy and blamed the failures of the State leadeship on them. His speech carries a strong, nationalistic undertone.

There is no concrete proof to accuse Tibus Heth. If there was and if it was in my hands, I would likely either accuse him and show it or give it to the appropriate parties. The situation created there however, was very convenient for him.

It doesn’t matter if someone is taking offenses or not. What does matter is behaving offensively. Accidental offenses happen - but respectful people who don’t mean offense simply bring apologies. And offensive people blame offended in being offended. Just because they’re sick amoral morons.

They’re pretty much full with hatred towards Tibus Heth.

What I really liked about Tibus Heth, he was speaking about things as they are. Yes, there’s nothing wrong in calling an enemy as enemy. And he earned merit to speak against corrupt leadership, since back then he exactly replaced a corrupt leadership of Caldari Constructions.

Exactly.

I’m sorry, but you seem to be missing something here. Hate Speech is not “Full of Hatred towards” - for a statement to qualify as Hate Speech, it has to be demeaning on the basis of their attributes - such as ethnicity, disability or sexual orientation.

Gariushi denounced Tibus Heth because of his actions, not his origins or views. This is not hate speech - this is denouncing. Pure, plain and simple. He publicly declared that Heth’s actions are a dangerous path that will deepen the rift between the two empires.

There’s nothing hateful in exposing the methods of your adversary.

Heth’s words earlier were dangerously close to calling for a genocide. There is plenty wrong with calling an entire people an enemy and attributing negative traits to them. It’s broadly targeting basing on a singular attribute, in this case, nation.

And that is Hate Speech.

All my what. Well, hatred of ethnicity I’ve seen a lot with Gallente infamous “Exterminate all Caldari”.
Hatred of… disability? How is that even possible? Is it a minmatar phenomenon?
Hatred of sexual orientation? Well, I guess orienting yourself in a sexual manner pretty much DESERVES you hatred since open sexuality is simply disgusting and shall never be accepted in public.

But in either case, whatever. Mr. Gariushi was quite hateful against Mr. Heth in his speech.

This denouncing was full of hatred.

You could do it in a hateful or respectful way. What did Mr. Gariushi was a hateful speech, not a respectful polemic that would show that Mr. Heth was wrong.

Unlike Gallente words, Heth never advocated for genocide. Tibus Heth’s ideals were to deliver us from disgrace of gallente influence, he never asked to “exterminate” gallente like gallente were asking to “exterminate Caldari”. Even after liberating Caldari Prime Tibus Heth has stopped the war instead of going to “bombard Gallente Prime” which he certainly could do with the fleet we have assembled and could occupy the second planet just as fast. He just wanted to protect Caldari from Gallente, make us strong, not “punish them”.

Once again, you confuse the facts: you called Gariushi’s address “Hate speech” in a previous post:

I have pointed out that his words do not qualify as hate speech. Because they do not. If you were to start calling for people of Gallente ethnicity to be killed because of their ethnicity - that is hate speech. Similarily, calling for violence against homosexuals because of their sexual orientation - that is hate speech as well.

If you were to call for the death of a singular Gallentean because they shot you (commited an action against you) it’s… really not, is it.

(However, calling for the deaths of all Gallente because one of them shot you, so by some weird logic all of them are like that - does qualify).

This is a very important distinction to make, especially in the case of Gariushi. His words were emotional, yes, but far from hatred - and spoken at a time where it was far too late for a polite discourse while drinking some tea. They weren’t even aimed at Heth at that point, they were aimed at the people while violence was rising on both sides.

As for Heth - let’s look at his address after he took over as CEO of Caldari Constructions.

In this instance, we see quite clearly, that he chose to place the blame for inefficiencies in the State Government to the Gallente. Because surely it could not have been nepotism, pure damn greed… no, that had to be the fault of an external foe.

Classic, textbook “stoke the pride” nationalism. We are better, the other group is worse.

Villifying the enemy ideology again, because his vision of the State is better.

Posted reply in offtopic, since this tribal’s conspiracies are neither about Noir nor his actions anymore.

Do not try to divert the discussion away when it ceases to comply with your vision of the world, Diana.

You’re diverting the discussion and blaming others in it. Get out, tribal. I now feel sorry I wasted my precious time on answering to your previous inane rants about our Hero.

Why would she change the habit of a lifetime?

The horse is a greasy smear in the dirt, Paige. The whip has long since broken and worn down to a stub, and the hand holding it is wracked with agonising arthritis and joint damage.

It is long, LONG past time to stop beating.

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I wonder, can we have here a normal discussions without enemies of the State like @Stitcher to jump in to insult people just because he wants to show his disagreement but lacks any smarts to produce any intelligent objection?..

There was no ranting. I have merely pointed out that the death of Otro Gariushi and the potential to portray Alexander Noir as a deranged psychopath was a convenient event for Tibus Heth.

Still, repeatedly, you call me a Tribal - even though I did point out to you that by doing so you insult both the Tribes of Matar and my own folk so it’s likely deliberate. I ask you - are you capable of a calm, civilized discussion about delicate topics, at all?

No. No she is not. And she has, time and again, proven that she cannot have any discussion without making derogatory comments about race. Engaging in discussion with Kim, with the hope of achieving meaningful dialogue, is an exercise in futility. However if you are only in it to listen to a banshee screech, finding the right buttons to push is a simple task.

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You talk about my dear Ms Kim as if she is some master villain.

She is a minor irritant at best.

It seems more gallente bootlickers are jumping in discussion just to insult the original poster because they can’t grasp ideas with their petty minds and make personal attacks instead, stomping feet like toddlers and bawling instead of bringing intelligent arguments. Honestly, that was expected from these three.

I just suggest to ignore Toovs, Seos, Stitchers and their kind and continue the discussion without their half-witted remarks.

Well, this thread certainly went places. Diana, as someone with both Gallente and Caldari ancestry I’d appreciate it if you disposed with the racism, it’s not conducive to civil discussion.

On the theory that Admiral Noir was clonejacked, I think it’s worryingly plausible. What everyone saw as his final act was so utterly against everything that the man had stood for over the course of his life that I had considerable difficulty believing he could actually commit such an atrocity. The idea that someone managed to compromise his mental state in such a way that he would ram a Nyx-class supercarrier into a peace conference would make some amount of sense, though how you would actually accomplish such a thing is currently beyond my knowledge.

It also raises the question of how many other high-ranking individuals might have been compromised in such a manner, and by whom. A personal theory of mine is that Tibus Heth might have been one such individual, considering how his actions at the end of his reign clashed with his previous actions in aiding the working-class Caldari citizenry.

I’ve no particular love for the man, but if someone did manage to twist him into a mockery of everything he once stood for then I think we ought to find out who was responsible.

OOC

I’m a major lore nerd but it’s hard to keep everything straight, and I’m under the impression that Heth genuinely cared about the rights and welfare of the Caldari working class. Please correct me if I’ve gotten something wrong on that front.

I was raised in a State where Tibus Heth was taking us to exciting places. Meritocracy was back, the rights of the working citizen were pushed front and center and the Caldari State was beginning to emerge from a financial doldrum into an exciting and bright new day of prosperity, progress and innovation.

Then he managed to take back the Homeworld - which was the culmination of him delivering the biggest promise he’d made.

Sadly, from my perspective it began to go downhill from there. He didn’t secure a negotiated peace that would allow us to keep the Homeworld from it’s invaders. He began to erode our unique system of government in search of ever more centralisation. Then he trampled on the rights of workers to strike and demonstrate - it was precisely the thing that he’d fought against in his early days.

I was fully disillusioned by the time he ordered the death of Admiral Yanala - may she be comfortably with her Ancestors - after the debacle over Home that sullied the sacred peaks of Kalaakiota.

However, Noir built a life in service to peace and then threw it away with an act of terror that was against the life’s work and legacy he’d built. Heth came to power in an act of defiance and slowly devolved into a tyrant over time. It’s a journey that is very human and one we’ve seen before.

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Also quite plausible. I suppose that my view of things can be skewed by a desire to always see the best in people.

I don’t understand what you mean? What was ‘the Broker’ and who is this person?

((OOC: Just so you know, you have stumbled into an in-character roleplay forum and details like the Broker from the books isn’t widely known by capsuleers in-game, I don’t believe. :slight_smile: ))

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An electric boogeyman. Super-spy-infobroker and master of disguise. One that… never really had much pinned on him, did he.

While yes, assuming the mythical and reported capabilities of that man are as impressive as they are he totally could’ve impersonated Noir and rammed the Wandering Saint. He could’ve probably been Noir for a month and not even his wife would tell the difference.

However, it doesn’t really fit his (speculated) MO now, does it…