Because medium structures are too cheap, they’re spammed and spammable, they provide much bigger benefits than a POS, they can be placed anywhere, and they’re cheap enough they can be treated like they are disposable and they’re cheap enough that they often aren’t worth clearing out unless there’s nothing else to do.
I want to see fewer roach motel structures in space, more larger structures that people will actually defend and fight over, less spam. I don’t know what CCP’s end goal is, but that’s why I’ve been advocating for the changes.
Fair enough. We have a difference of opinion then, I still stand by my earlier post: there are other changes that better address that core problem, with less side effects – the example I gave was first-come-first-served per-system medium structure fuel-cost escalation.
We are often grappling with questions where option A improves the game for group 1 but harms the game for group 2, and option B improves the game for group 2 and harms the game for group 1, and so groups 1 and 2 fight about whether to do A or B.
I generally tend to think neither A nor B is the right answer- the right answer is usually to do A in one type of space and B in another type of space. One of the things I think is coolest about EvE, and one of the cleverest aspects of the design, is that they’ve set up different kinds of space that are optimized for different types of game play. E.g., they have built in features that optimize NS for the big blocs, that optimize LS for small gangs, that optimize HS for solo players, etc. I think that’s really awesome. If you feel like playing on one way one day, there is a place for that, and if you feel like playing another way the next day, there is space for that too.
But, it seems like CCP sometimes kind of forgets about that whole, clever, structure they set up and makes some changes global that really should probably apply in one type of space, but not others, to maintain that differentiation.
It seems like we have a consensus that the removal of the timer works well for sov NS. I think we have a consensus that it does not work well for WH. I defer to others on whether it works for HS, Pochven, NPC null or LS. But I think that’s how it should be approached- it should be a decision per type of space, based on the sort of activity that space is optimized for.
What makes a structure a ‘roach motel’? If roach motels are the crux of your issue, then having a clear idea of what those are will help clear up potential conflicts of misunderstanding. Because I know how GSF’s leadership used the term six years ago, but that usage wouldn’t apply to anything in j-space, highsec, or even most of low-sec, and I don’t know if you’re using it the same way now.
What’s to stop null sec entities from spamming large structures instead? You say medium structures are too cheap but we know the null sec empires are rich.
Lets say you can deploy and maintain a large structure short term for 10b isk. Then each system you want to fill with 20x structures which is apparently prohibitive for null sec empire play would cost ~200b isk. That seems like a lot, but its about the cost of a fleet of battleships. We know the biggest null sec empires can afford this. Its already been successfully argued here that the very same entities will take advantage of any mechanic to their own maximum benefit even if it is horrible for gameplay.
How long till we’re back saying we need to remove a timer from Large structures too?
Perhaps we need a different mechanic to improve the experience of war in null sec rather than a change that effects the whole of eve?
There are always going to be “better” solutions, but the issue is less about what’s a better on-paper solution as it is what is both doable in terms of the resources CCP is willing to use to address the problem, and the amount of time it would take to develop the solution. Your example, for instance, is completely novel in the game and would not be something they can change easily. The changes proposed, on the other hand, mirror existing behavior for small structures, so they don’t require a ton of new work and effort.
It’s a random structure that exists in space that isn’t being actively used, and just needs to be cleared out.
Yes, and those empires won’t be rich if they start spamming 18+ bil structures everywhere. Goons, for instance, learned their lesson during the last war and you aren’t seeing the kind of keepstar spam you did before.
But hey, if you’re right and they do start getting spammed and it becomes an issue, I will have no problems advocating to remove a timer from them too.
I don’t think they are cheap at all, when fully fitted and properly set up, though I do say that from having pretty naff income potential from operating under the radar in low return NPC nullsec.
Maybe if CCP doubled the build cost then would that help. Maybe 1.5bn for an Astrahus hull would be good, maybe a similar cost increase for the Raitaru and Athanor is in order. Rather than what is being applied here.
I find the word spammed a little emotive, there is a strategic reason why people would put them one in a system, be it a jump point, a place of safety, a place to store reships. That is an operational need and not spam.
We have corp ones as people like to have control on their clone bay, because of people disappearing, that is an issue that creates spam when you lose an expensive clone because someone stops playing.
I actually think that POS’s are far superior, though anchoring and on-lining and unanchoring and off lining modules still gives me nightmares… We still use them actually.
I can’t treat them Mediums as disposable, but you can.
Clearing out is a strategic choice, we all know the Simple Farmers in Catch as an example where it was used, but how many people went that far? We did try to clear them out. And that was when it was actually painful to do so. And as soon as the structures were made easier to shoot they really did spam them. I saw that happen as I was living in Catch with Tactical Supremacy.
Putting them where you want was part of the attraction too, I had one in Khafis on the Incursion BM I made, was funny…, but a pain to warp to and ultimately useless, it even got reinforced once by a war decker, but they did not turn up for armour the peasants.
CCP should perhaps make them more expensive for the hull, rather then lose the Armour timer as such, perhaps doubling the cost would be better.
They are absurdly cheap for what they can do. Less than a billion isk, even with the core? Maybe 3 bil fitted at most? For tether, insurance, repairs, clone bays, and defensive stuff?
Ok, so that is definitely a different definition than the one I’ve been operating under. And it’s one that doesn’t fit any of the structures that people would actually defend—especially the smaller groups for whom that structure might well be all they’ve got, you know?
Which brings us to another question1: Should measures aimed at those unused structures impact structures that see active use?
1. It does not ‘beg the question’, however. Regardless of how often people use ‘begging the question’ to mean ‘leads us to the question’ or ‘brings up the question’ or ‘compels us to ask’, “Begging the Question” is a goddamned logical fallacy that means something entirely different. It means “an argument’s premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it” (src: Texas State College Dept of Philosophy) Not saying you’ve used it that way, just venting a little because holy hell does that misuse annoy the piss outta me even worse than most grammatical errors. :sigh: #Editor4Lyfe I guess.
Do you have an idea what CCP’s view is? I am guessing it is close to your view, but I have no idea.
My preferred fit for an Astrahus is 3.7bn, that is not to be sniffed at on my income in NPC nullsec. We are talking 1.25bn for the core plus hull. So my suggestion of 1.5bn for the hull would be 2.1bn with the core. We could go with that, it hurts people like me but is far better than the defence nerf we are about to receive…
Yeah, but they can defend themselves without a gunner and they were a lot stronger, I had a really nasty large POS setup that was way more dangerous then any medium structure.
Yeah pretty much that, but how do we define what is an unused structure, I am thinking that perhaps requiring them to be fully fit, though not rigs as they are stupidly expensive…
CCP Aurora’s view is what she wrote as to why they were going this route.
That is not a large amount of money for even the smallest of groups. A group of ten people each contributing 200 mil can afford it. It’s beyond cheap. People use and lose more expensive ships than that daily.
True, which is why you brought bigger ships and fleets to kill POSes. They still died to a concerted attack.
I don’t see how you’re really going to be able to separate them out. You can fuel a structure for a year, people can randomly use it for tether as they’re flying around even if nobody is actively living there or mining/building with it. Just because a structure isn’t low power or abandoned doesn’t mean it’s not space trash.
Let’s set that aside for a moment, though, just in the interest of having everyone’s thoughts on it nice and clear, and see how much consensus there is on some facets here before we start worrying about feasibility studies and environmental impact reports.
Regardless of what it would take to separate them out, should that distinction matter?
This is probably overstating it. I think there are totally corps that have a long term goal, around which the whole corporation is organized for weeks or even months, of one day being able to afford a $3b structure. That’s like 1,000 missions. If you’re expecting players to chip in 10% of their income for it, that’d be 10,000 missions. Hell, I remember a time when I was really excited to finally be able to afford a battlecruiser… If I’m remembering right, that BC represented my earnings from like my first 2 months of game play.
I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond.
Another fair critique. I don’t think there’s much more to say, challenging this would be a digression to the topic as it comes down to “who believes that time and money would be worth it” and I think our differing opinions make it clear.
I do have one last comment though:
To be perfectly honest, the why was not explicitly menioned by CCP Aurora in the OP. It alludes to the previous change being “to allow for a wider variety of ships to participate on-grid during structure contests”, but then just says the next steps are “bringing improved balance to structures”. Additionally mentioning: “however they have never quite settled into a completely satisfying position in the ecosystem - this is partly due to low-cost medium structures being so closely coupled to their larger cousins”.
These are statements of “we are balancing” and “this is how we are balancing” but there are not any statements “this is why they are being balanced in this way”. Why are they not satisfactory, and what does a satisfactory position in the ecosystem look like?
EDIT to conclude: Hence, the request for your help in obtaining an elaboration of CCP’s goals/motivations – if shareable, I know not everything is.
This sums the value of this discussion overall pretty much.
If the ‘big’ guys don’t read what the ‘small’ guys want, and by your words also vice versa why take pretense of being interested in searching a middle ground while you are clearly not. A dialogue requires at the very least to start with the assumption you might be wrong. And to do that you have to have a little less of an ego.
The thread has been a debate between you (with one or two guys supporting you) versus about 20 others on how this will be a change detrimental to highsec, lowsec, NPC null and wormhole space (basically everywhere but sov null), and you tell some rando person giving input you don’t want to read. While being CSM. Now if anything here is insulting, that is your behaviour.
POSes both have more EHP than a small cit and have the ability to shoot back while nobody’s home.
Moreover you have been systematically using non or false arguments and twisting words. Previously it was searching armour timers on zkill (as if the structure will get displayed at all if it isn’t manned and doesn’t die), it’s up there also how you personally haven’t had much fights for armour (ignoring the obvious reasons 2+ and <100 man groups would be reluctant to fight the blob) so you resorted to asking others how many fights they had.
It can be clearly seen you are intelligent enough to understand all of this so there lies the second option - you are not doing it in good heart. It is extremely hard for me to be convinced at this point you have other agenda than benefiting a select group of people (which you also admitted yourself somewhere up, in itself not a big deal, however), and are willing to do so to the detriment of others and the game as a whole.
The thread has come to the point of arguing about semantics and definitions.
I still do not understand what the issue is for CCP? I don’t see why?
Are you sure? After this change is applied how many do I have to fund as throwaway structures on my rather thin returns from NPC nullsec?
You see that as a big bloc player with IHUB boosted sov space. But think of the players who play one or two hours a night in space that is under the radar. Moons make decent ISK of course, if you can actually have a chance to mine them.
That is an excellent way to put it, I think I averaged 35m an hour doing level 4’s, ignoring the LP. I was salvaging and looting at the time as it was worth doing then. I have not done level 4’s for years. But I am no min/maxer…
Yeah, that’s a big gripe I always have… Everybody talks about improving the NPE. Missions ARE the NPE, but they have been completely abandoned… Last I checked, there were missions that had been bugged for like 20 years…
I don’t really care what you believe, but I am doing what I think is in the best interests of the entire game, not a “select group of people.” This is what I have been doing my entire time on the CSM.
I think it’s a very bad idea to balance the game around what solo players can do. In the end, there is no reason for folks to have structures if they can’t afford them. This is what NPC stations are for. There are free options for everybody, and there’s also nothing stopping folks from getting into a bigger group or for small groups to pool resources. There are freeports in plenty of places, too. In the end, you don’t have to own your own structures if that’s outside your means.
