Yes…I think my point was more that the equivalent T2 missiles have less range ( but greater DPS ) so one might as well train for the Meta turret first. On my noob is says the Arbalest training for the Caracal is 15 days whereas Heavy Missile Launcher II is one month and 5 days.
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Ironically…being ganked ! Quite the opposite of what a lot of people argue.
It was being ganked that set me on a Wrath Of Khan ’ I’ll show you !’ path of vengeance that motivated me to stay in the game and skill up. It was the kick up the backside that I needed. Of course, 18 months later I’ve long since forgotten the gank of a ‘mere’ 4m ISK Condor…though the ‘I’ll show you !’ mentality is still there…and I think needs to be.
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Or people learn how to cooperate in the game…
Our newbros fly WH-content in Mallers and their job is to soak up aggro with their beefy and small hulls that we can easily keep alive with remote rep, while helping the fleet with RemoteTrackingComputers and TargetPainters. They learn the trigger mechanics, they learn which NPCs do what, learn the Ano/Sig names, they learn how to be aware of Dscan, New-Sig-Spawning, how to migitate incoming damage of bigger ships, how to broadcast for reps, they learn all the fleet-talk, how to do squadwarps, how remote-rep- and remote-cap-chains work. They learn how to roll WHs, how to quickly survey another system, how to update Pathfinder, how to manage bookmarks efficiently, how to create multiple safespots, how to create deepsaves, how to set up their overview, watchlist and UI efficiently… I could continue. All that in a T1 fitted Maller. So far no one has complained that he cannot fly a Sacrilege, they are way too busy to play the game and earn their fair share of the fleet’s rewards. If they participate they get the same money as everyone else, which is serveral hundred million ISK per OP. I see little reason to complain.
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What is this ‘properly’ ? On my very first mission for Absolute Order, a year ago, I went out in a mere Gnosis ( among Paladins and Ikitursas and Apocalypses ) and still managed to come pretty high up the kill stats, and got the final blow…
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The EvE shakes got me hooked.
When I started EvE, my friends and I were looking for a substitute for Shadowbane, which suffered from lag and many bugs.
I loved the excitement of combat in EvE. The fact that it took a while for me to earn anything (particularly my first Rupture), combined with the knowledge that it could be destroyed made combat a thrill that I never totally lost. The EvE shakes are something that no other pvp oriented game ever delivered.
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I make and give out fits (make because fits depends on use and situations, which can differ) all the time. The DCU being T2 is about the least important T2 module, if they’d need a T2 at all.
On mastery system it’s really simple: it’s a guide at best but you have to be beware that it’s made by people who don’t really understand the game and it’s full or weirdo and illogical skill requirements. It’s to be used to get an idea, not to be actually followed. Apart from that the skills you need also depend on usage and other play style choices you might have as that might affect the importance of some of the skills. Tell that to a newbie, or anyone advocating newbies to follow it, and you’re good. It’s pretty much like Magic 14: look at it, learn from it but don’t blindly follow it.
I have done “start with nothing challenges” quite often, generally if something changed in the NPE or to try out some new feature, none of those ever needed T2 modules early on, or at all. Here’s a Caracal lvl 2 mission fit that fits with starter fitting skills, requires VERY low skills and it’s cheap (on purpose).
[Caracal, Caracal Basic]
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Missile Guidance Enhancer I10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Large Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
Large Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
Enduring Multispectrum Shield Hardener
Enduring Multispectrum Shield HardenerExperimental SV-2000 Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Experimental SV-2000 Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Experimental SV-2000 Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Experimental SV-2000 Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Experimental SV-2000 Rapid Light Missile LauncherMedium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger IHornet I x2
Mjolnir Light Missile x3000
Scourge Light Missile x5000
What do you need for this?
- Preferably Cal Cruiser 3 but not that important as the Caracal is rate of fire based instead of damage based so increasing the skill doesn’t increase rapid launcher clip damage. lvl 2 is just fine for now
- preferably get shield management and shield operation to lvl 3
- get light missiles to 3, bombardment&projection to 2, rapid launch to 2
- drone skills entirely optional for this ship and use
There’s your lvl 2 mission caracal, takes nothing at all and works just fine. And once they have that they can get those skills to lvl 3 and once they have that then start focusing more on what they find important or enjoy: probably more missile skills but as said, they might just not enjoy the ship, missiles in general or the play style. There’s no need to push newbies into a direction, make them be able to try that direction without going too deep in it and let them make up their own mind.
Caldari Frigate I
Caldari Frigate II
Caldari Frigate III
Caldari Destroyer I
Caldari Destroyer II
Caldari Destroyer III
Caldari Cruiser I
Caldari Cruiser II
Missile Launcher Operation II
Missile Launcher Operation III
Rapid Launch I
Rapid Launch II
Light Missiles I
Light Missiles II
Missile Projection I
Missile Bombardment I
Missile Projection II
Missile Bombardment II
Shield Management II
Shield Operation I
Shield Operation II
Shield Management III
Shield Operation III
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That kill doesnt count because your Gnosis was not on Mastery V. No way you had fun doing it, you cried all that evening about not being able to have a complete T2 fit.
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I see the “all change is bad change” and “nobody can ever have an easier start than I did” crowds are busily constructing strawmen for them to argue against.
The post you’re all arguing about wasn’t about me, or new players, or the minimum possible training time to get someone into a cruiser. It isn’t about what new players need, or the fact that you can get started with lower skills while you work towards higher skills.
The guy in question literally asked for a good solid cruiser skill plan with good support skills - not a “getting started with cruisers” plan. He knew he would work towards it slowly, he was already doing so. He was already flying, fighting, and making ISK.
I wasn’t giving him newbie advice or steering him in any direction - in fact I was trying to steer him away from his long-term Gila focus and to things he could do shorter term. That doesn’t change what he asked for.
I specifically stated in the post he wanted the whole plan with support skills - not the minimal trimmed-down “just enough to get rolling” plans people are linking here.
As for Mastery plans, I don’t use them and I don’t recommend them. As Aisha said, they have a lot of useless junk and they miss a lot of useful stuff. However here’s what I use them for - a quick training time guesstimate.
If you look at the Mastery plan, strip out the useless stuff, and add in the useful stuff, you’ll generally find that the training time you end up with will be about 85-90% of the “Mastery” level time.
Mastery I - gives you the basics to undock with a basic fit, most skills to lvl 1 or 2.
Mastery 2 - gives you a decent more reliable fit, with most skills to 1, 2 or 3.
Mastery 3 - gives you the approx. training time to a good well rounded skill set with with most skills to 2, 3 or 4.
and so on. The training times people are talking about here are equivalent to Mastery I, basic undock fits, without including anything like support skill training. (Which, again, was specifically mentioned in the post - but some folks clearly struggle with reading comprehension and retention issues.)
I’ve started a new character to check the times as I’ve only gone from memory so far. Perhaps I remembered them incorrectly, but I’m pretty sure those were the rough training times.
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You don’t need a T2 everything Gila, you just don’t. You could literally only have drones lvl 2 and medium drones lvl 1 and it would already out-dps many other folks who run missions or do combat sites. I don’t care if what he asked for is a near-max fit (if only without realising it), newbies ask lots of questions where the best answer is “you’re asking the wrong questions”. Also, it wasn’t aimed at you in particular, just in general.
The reality is that most newbies get told garbage, whether that is “train magic 14”, “need a T2 DCU”, “no point unless you have T2 weapons”, “isk and grinding for omega is your main goal”, “you can’t do well as a newbie”, “alpha can’t make isk”, “just go mine”, “must join a null alliance” or any other low effort low IQ idiotic ■■■■■■■■. It’s all dumb and based on ignorance and stupidity of the one spewing that nonsense and there’s a lot of stupid people so newbies get bombarded with that ■■■■ very often.
I’d say that is all far more detrimental than pretty much anything else that could discourage any newbie.
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Well I think you are gaslighting, as what was responded to was you quoting the guy as saying " Over a year for a good Gila fit ?"…which you then ‘corrected’ down to 6 months, which my examples above show is still absurdly above the actual length of time which is more like 6 weeks. That is to fly an Absolute Order doctrine T2 Gila…not just any old random Gila.
That is actual training times based on a noob Omega account that I have. All a bit less than a year !
The main thing I have responded to is people’s exaggeration of skills times based on opinion rather than actual fact. Some have exaggerated deliberately to try to make some spurious point.
asteroids ftw
m
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Especially my time.
The art, the lore, shooting rats and discovering all that the game has to offer for my time and money.
That’s right. I’m not here to argue and get mad like some of the posters in this thread, I thought I was here giving my opinion based on what I experienced but I understand that my opinion isn’t very popular 
and that’s ok. I’m all for Democracy and the vote is clearly in favor of not talking about or mentioning [ that thing that wastes our time]
I am obliged to bend, cease and desist my posion in the face of the unrelenting masses before I get tarred and feathered.
viva a democracia!
Mastery is a terrible estimate.
I’m well-skilled in the current ship I’m flying, don’t feel like I really need to train any more skills, maybe get spec 5 in one skill or another, yet when I look at mastery level 5 I would get an ‘estimate’ of 500 days.
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Right. Now look at Mastery 3, which is the one that’s been repeatedly indicated here, and see what you get.
I understand all you folks need to seriously twist the details around in order to get a ‘fact’ that suits your narrative, but please try to stick to the actual situation presented.
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Mastery is a bad indication, it’s full of irrelevant skills.
I’m flying this Loki with Artillery at the moment, but I would need to train Missiles to get my mastery up. Yes, I also sometimes fly Missiles, so training those isn’t a bad idea to get more well-rounded, but it’s not relevant at all for my artillery loki.
Pretty sure it’s trying to make me train amour spec skills too.
No. Stop using mastery to defend anything, explain or guide anything at all. Seriously.
You could quote your Mastery V time since it suited your (irrelevant) point to do so, but you can’t quite your Master III time? It’s just a couple clicks away. Let’s see it.
My character is 132m SP in subcap combat, I’m at mastery level 4 for this ship. Don’t see how it is relevant to your argument, though.
My example is that mastery means very little and is misleading.
My character doesn’t need it, and I don’t see why a newbie should be paying it any more attention than ‘inspiration of skills that could be useful’.
asteroids?
asteroids!!!
That is some kind of hard-core, gate keeping, hierarchically structured, elitist game right there!
You are too much for me Mike. I’m sticking to space invaders.
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You said you’re comfortable with the skills as you have them in the ship. If Mastery 3 says “Yep you got the right skills for this ship, no additional training time needed”, then I guess it was a pretty good fit huh?