This casts the Intaki as a monolith. How many of them want independence? How many view the Federation as tyrannical?
I think you’ll find that among Marcus’ Intaki allies, those answers are meaningless, because they feel that way, and if the majority of Intaki disagrees, the majority should be forced to accede to their wishes.
It’s not because it’s difficult, it’s because they are non-negotiable.
First pre-requesite to diplomacy: you need to actually have will to TALK. Example of @Ouilliam_Antolliere shows otherwise.
Second pre-requesite to diplomacy: you have to trust that if your opponent promises something, they will adhere to it. The Federation is constantly violating treaties they sign.
What sort of diplomacy can be done with them?
Of course, peace and trade is better than war, but when you’re dealing with such brainwashed untrustful warmongers, there is no other option than fight.
And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.
The Viriette constellation is under Naval occupation in violation of two separate treaties. Whether this should be called an “invasion” or not is typical wordplay. For Gallente, Federal military manuevers should only ever have positive implications.
With respect, I cannot agree with Lavius-haan’s statement that the conflict is “over”. He is correct that the Navy’s military strength is overwhelming. For us in the Protectorate, in the wake of the ceasefire our fight is over. But no one can be certain that Admiral Torigo will not intervene. We are in a developing situation. Further, even if CalNav does not; for those pro-State Intaki who flourished under the Protectorate it is not “over” at all. Their struggles have only just begun.
What should we Caldari tell those pro-State Intaki to do? I will give my advice. First, recognize that the well-being of Intaki Prime is not the foremost concern of the Caldari. The State will not ‘rescue’ you. Do not rest your hope on Torigo.
Too few of your brethren share your ideas at the moment. If you want to change their minds, I think violence is unlikely to be productive. Focus on propaganda. Compare the prosperity and stability during the best periods of Protectorate occupation with the worst under Federal martial law. You are in for a long struggle, but you must gather support.
An alternative which should not be quickly dismissed is moving to the Syndicate Protectorate or the State. Transplanting life across light-years is never easy, but it may be easier in the long run than playing the years-long game of reforming the homeworld. Mordu’s Legion thought so. Immigration is a project Caldari capsuleers could assist with.
We’re not some holo-vid villains or mindless simulation baddies, you know. Who are you to say we don’t have an interest in helping the Intaki? The Serpentis Corporation has worked alongside the Intaki people for as long as the corporation has existed, and we will continue to do so irregardless of what the corrupt and power-hungry politicians in the Federation say or do. And if our Intaki friends need supplies to resist an overbearing and oppressive government, who are we to deny them?
The Serpentis Corporation is, at the end of the day, a business and will make decisions for its bottom line.
You’re the first I’ve heard argue otherwise.
Oh yeah, because you’re a foremost expert on the Corporation?
Just because moneymaking is our goal, as any good business, doesn’t mean it’s the sole thing on our minds and we ignore everything else. We’ve enacted numerous humanitarian operations, from assisting refugees during the Triglavian invasion and the Turnur catastrophe, to donating cutting-edge medical equipment and medicines to conflict zones and disaster sites. Maybe you don’t know because you just consume whatever propaganda the Fed government and CONCORD put out? Rather likely.
The Federation doesn’t actually have a lot to say about the Serpentis Corporation, there isn’t as much attention on it as one might think.
I also never said that the Serpentis Corporation didn’t do any of those things. I merely said it doesn’t pretend to care about the people of Intaki so trying to reason with it from that angle would be pointless. It was rather a compliment much like Mr. Suzaku above who was quite honest about the State not being the savior of Intaki.
The Serpentis Corporation isn’t a humanitarian organization and it’s never pretended to be.
Are you arguing otherwise?
The majority of Intaki will never be polled on the issue and even if they were it’s almost impossible to rationalize against the fact that many Intaki are expatriots. Hypothetically speaking what if 1/3rd of the Intaki want to be in the Federation, 1/3rd want to be in the State, and 1/3rd want their independence? If 2/3rds don’t want to be a part of the Federation, but can’t agree on whether they want to be independent, who wins? The will of the people is difficult to measure when hobbled by bureaucracy.
On that note I would like to ask: How much of the Federation’s population rose up to fight against Duvailer’s regime? What percentage of the population is necessary for a revolt to be justified? 5%? 10%? 50%?
The same could have been said about the tribes and their liberation from the Amarr. They willfully took the risk of being destroyed by an empire large enough to crush them into dust to win their freedom. There was nothing legal about what the Minmatar did, but does that make it wrong?
They don’t have to care. All they have to do is see some ISK flowing into their coffers. Plus it undermines the Federation’s interests and draws money/attention away from law enforcement efforts. It’s a win-win for SerpCorp.
I don’t think they’re alone right now, but their support will remain under the proverbial table. I am free to advocate rebellion in the open because I don’t have to fear getting shot in the back of the head by Black Eagles. It’d be a minor inconvenience at best. Others aren’t so privileged.
I’ll clarify again that the purpose of my statement was simply that trying to bargain with the Serpentis Corporation from the premise of “what’s good for the people of Intaki” would be fruitless because it isn’t what motivates them, this is as opposed to the argument made to the original poster about doing what is good for the people of Intaki.
That’s a fair distinction and I apologize if it seems like I’m grilling you on the topic.
I would argue that, not only were there a significant number of variables involved in the events leading up to and during the rebellion, this was the collective will of an entire people.
There are small groups of Intaki spread through several parts of the cluster and in the Federation vocally pushing for secession but it’s far from a majority. There are also many Intaki pushing for more autonomy but still within the Federation and some pushing for more Federation presence and harmony.
The circumstances aren’t entirely the same between these two situations.
I understand the point you’re trying to make but I think it’s off the mark. There are plenty of vocal supporters of both the Intaki secession and the Intaki autonomy movements throughout the Federation. It’s not as if the Black Eagles are assassinating anyone that speaks out about it.
The Black Eagles have a dreadful reputation, which I’d argue is necessary for the function they fill, but apart from some isolated and extreme incidents in its past, the Federation isn’t in the practice of stifling speech or information. Both are required for a functioning democracy and the media maintains a constant vigil against misinformation, there’s money in scandal and intrigue after all.
That is true, though there are factors at play that have the potential to produce similar circumstances. Escalating tensions between the four empires have drawn our collective attention away from threats that beset us all. Trigs, Drifters, Sansha, and Overminds all lurking out in the dark, suspiciously silent. It’s only a matter of time before one or all of them make a move. That’s one existential threat per government. Not a good sign.
The Black Eagles are probably more than happy to foster the idea that they are capable of assassinating anyone even if they can’t. It’s useful for them to sow terror in such a way. I wouldn’t be surprised if the BEs spread rumors about themselves to quell potential rebellions before they get off the ground. Official misinformation is a spectacularly effective form of information warfare.
The Corporation is made up of many different individuals, with many different goals. Yes, I can assure you there are leaders who do indeed care about the plight of the Intaki people on their homeworld. So on a whole I suppose not, but there’s enough momentum in that direction within Corp that helping the people of the planet is certainly something our organization is involved with. The same with humanitarian works: it’s not a stated goal, but it is none the less an area we dedicate funds and efforts to.
That all combines to form a truly lovely framework for’whatever I want is what Intaki wants’. It dovetails well with something Abraxis once said: “It’s easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put in their mouths.”
And really, it even goes a little further to attempt to immunize yourself from folks objecting to you speaking for them, by claiming it’s impossible to ever know what the people want, because nobody will ask. A wonderful way to justify enforcing your will on them, regardless of their own.
Depends on who you ask, now doesn’t it? Ask the revolutionaries, and no number is too small. Ask their opposition, and no number is sufficient. Ask an outside observer, and the most honest answer you’ll get is a shrug and ‘how the hell should I know?’
Still, it’s interesting, don’t you think, that you chose to frame the analogy in terms of people rising up, rather than those who simply supported the revolt’s ideals, goals, and methods. They’re not, after all, even close to the same thing.
It was not. Case in point: the Ammatar Mandate.
Even now, there are Minmatar in the Empire who are not Ammatar, both slave and free, who embrace the Amarr Rite and believe the Rebellion was wrong-headed and sinful. More of us remain enslaved in the Empire than are free in the Republic.
Of the four, only one has shown any indications of being an existential threat. The Trigs attacked, and were beaten back. The Drifters have demonstrated the capability to lob 100 doomsdays at any target they like… but don’t. And the Rogue Drones have been out there at least fifteen years with no moves toward attacking the empires. Existential threats that don’t threaten one’s existence aren’t terribly existential, are they?
Interesting, thank you for the clarification. I should spend some more time studying this particular part of cluster history, clearly I’ve drawn some erroneous conclusions.
I understand the point you’re making and it’s perfectly valid, though I think you may be approaching my statements with a more cynical perspective than they deserve. Even if the silent majority had a voice it would be drowned out by many other populations that could be described as majorities: The whole of the Federation, the whole of New Eden, and so on.
Indeed it does depend on who you ask because there is no objective answer. The question is for rhetorical purposes: Even a successful revolution is fought by a minority of individuals with the will and the means to fight. The majority is largely composed of people with families or other responsibilities that they wouldn’t dare put in harms way, and rightfully so.
That is the only way I could possibly frame it. The hearts and minds of people who do not engage in revolt are very important, but ultimately many do not contribute to the conflict at large. The balance of value between those two groups must be very carefully measured. When that balance is tilted toward the minority who exercise Will to Power one can end up becoming like Sansha Kuvakei and his abhorrent suppression of individual thought. Clearly that is unacceptable.
So far we’ve been very lucky in that regard. The Trigs and the Drifters hate eachother and are likely fighting in places we don’t even know of. Clades that have taken up residence in our cluster announce themselves as “outside the struggle.” I can only guess as to what that means, but it implies the forces we see are merely a fraction of a greater whole.
It’s true that the garden variety feral rogues we encounter in Empire space are a nuisance at best, but I think you’re vastly underestimating their ability to learn and grow. Between the appearance of Outgrowths a little over a year ago, and my own personal experiences with drones capable of iterative learning, I am convinced that rogues are capable of doing almost anything that a capsuleer can do. They are becoming more organized and far more intelligent than we have ever seen before.
Either you don’t, or I should be more cynical. Because you’re moving the goalposts there: You’ve gone from ‘we can’t know what the majority of Intaki want regarding self-determination’ to ‘and it wouldn’t matter, because they’re not the majority of humanity’. And my point remains the same: This is all just an excuse to say ‘So we should enforce my will on them all!’
But not necessarily supported, funded, or supplied by a minority. If only a minority supports the view of the revolutionaries… you’re pretty much guaranteed another revolution down the line, and a spiraling descent into constant internecine bloodshed.
And that tilting toward the ‘Will to Power’ crowd is precisely what your rhetoric about ‘we can’t know’ engenders.
Or you’re mischaracterizing them.
The Trigs didn’t attack New Eden until there was an apparent (because we still cannot confirm anything about their economic or industrial situation) need, and when they did, attacked a very specific kind of stars—which capsuleers had determined in advance, no less. As for the Clades who are not ‘outside the struggle’… they seem to be even less concerned with our space. An enemy who isn’t interested in most of your space? Not an existential threat.
The Drifters, again, attacked the Empire and killed Jamyl Sarum, but after their little revenge-tantrum in the Throne Worlds, ■■■■■■ right the hell off again. And, when we go into their space, they can be fought with reasonable success. Also not an existential threat.
Which doesn’t make them an existential threat. It makes them a potential threat, and one we should obviously continue to monitor, but their mere existence does not threaten ours, any more than our mere existence threatens the empires.
I definitely think you’re misinterpreting my position here. I never said it “didn’t matter.” There is a very sizable Intaki diaspora throughout the cluster, many of whom are not a part of the Federation and wouldn’t be polled in the first place. As far as federal authorities are concerned they would have no voice in this matter.
That’s a good point, though I wouldn’t say it’s guaranteed unless the powers of governance are abusive toward its constituency.
Fair. However, it’s not an objectively slippery slope. There are many degrees between utter libertarianism and crushing authoritarianism that can be observed within the Empires themselves. Each major government in the cluster is ruled by a minority, even the Federation. Elections go a long way to mitigate the problems that can cause but not all of them.
It’s less about the nature of their character and more about the information that can be gleaned from what little we know. There must be a reason the Trigs and Drifters don’t seem to care much about this cluster. Are they much larger and more powerful than we know? Both have access to technology that allows them to access not only this cluster but Anoikis and/or the Abyss. I can scarcely imagine the other spaces and places they occupy if we’re barely relevant to their conflict.
Tell that to CONCORD. They obviously believe that infomorphs are a tremendous threat to the cluster. Every clone that still has a neural interface socket is blacklisted and hunted like an animal. Some managed to slip the noose, but the enclaves were butchered. Ironically the same technology that made warclones dangerous freed us from our reliance on the capsule to be reborn in death. On top of that, thanks to Wiyrkomi, a lot of us are outfitted with enough bionics to make mass-produced blanks look like toys.
Imagine if capsuleers didn’t exist in the cluster until suddenly invading from somewhere else. How would baseliners react?
No, you never said it, but that’s the picture you’re painting. As for this new element of invoking ‘Federal Authorities’… how does that matter to what the majority of Intaki want? Remember, we were at…
All based on the issue of the view of the Intaki people, and whether or not the Intaki should ‘self-actualize’. It all comes across very much as you deciding the Intaki should secede from the Federation, even if (especially if?) that means a violent revolt, and when confronted with the question of ‘what if the majority don’t want to?’ you’re coming up with excuse after excuse for why the majority opinion can’t be trusted to be real.
‘Oh, we can’t know for sure. Besides, they won’t be polled. And if they are, other people who aren’t Intaki outnumber the Intaki1. And the Federation won’t care2 about the results!’
Ignoring, you know, that the issue of majority opinion was the majority of Intaki opinion about what the majority of Intaki want and what steps the Intaki should take to get it. Which is why your statements look like a whole lot of obfuscation and attempting to muddy the waters… but I could be misinterpreting them… you could, instead, be unable to hold onto a coherent thought.
You don’t seem unable to hold onto a coherent thought, though.
I’d say fomenting a violent revolution that gets people killed without having the support of the majority qualifies. Inevitably, people who didn’t seek violent revolution will be killed. Non-combatants, bystanders, Intaki loyal to Intaki who fight to defend the existing order because they legitimately feel it’s better for their people and homeworld.
Those people will have families—siblings, parents, cousins, children, kinsfolk. And those families will want justice for the needless and callously-inflicted violence that killed their loved ones. Will your revolutionaries make history by being the first revolutionaries ever to win, then submit themselves to judgment by those elements of the populace that didn’t support their revolution?
Kinda doubt it. So, yeah, there’s your abuse of the ‘constituency’ that didn’t consent to be governed by killers.
No, it’s not a slippery slope at all. It’s an invitation. It’s a veiled call for violent uprising regardless of what the majority wants.
‘I don’t know’ doesn’t make them existential threats. For all you know, the State is secretly continuing experimentation on bioweapons like Kyonoke. Doesn’t make the State an existential threat.
Well, let’s see… the Drifters locked themselves away in virtual reality constructs in a totally different region of space. So maybe they don’t care about this cluster because they’ve got someplace else to be. Regardless, it doesn’t much matter why they don’t care about this cluster. They don’t care. They’re not an existential threat. You don’t have to be able to imagine the other spaces and places anyone occupies when you’re evaluating whether or not something is an existential threat. If it is not actively threatening your existence, it’s not an existential threat.
A) News flash: CONCORD isn’t concerned about existential threats to the cluster. They’re concerned about potential threats to their own power and influence, just like everyone in a position of power and influence. And they’re not exactly infallible.
B) CONCORD’s position toward warclones has no bearing on whether or not rogue drones are an existential threat.
Irrationally and stupidly, the same way most humans—baseliner, warclone, and capsuleer—react to pretty much everything unfamiliar and different. That does not make the thing being reacted to an existential threat.
1. and would reply in the poll of Intaki, I guess? Would ‘the whole of New Eden’ go impersonating Intaki in order to reply on the poll?