SP Gains

[Clary_Daemon]

I have a suggestion I think would be beneficial to everyone, alpha and omega, beginner and veteran.

Increase passive SP gains by 25% when logged in.
For beginners, this would incentivize them staying logged in and learning the ui. For veterans, it would incentivize them to be online longer, which means more opportunity for engagement.
For alpha and omega, it would give them faster skillpoints, which means they could get into whatever they’re training for faster.

Increase alpha passive sp cap from 5 million sp to 10 million, and increase the max from 20m to 25m.
I’ve been playing with the alpha limits, and through passive sp gain, you’re pretty much limited to one or two avenues of gameplay.
Then you hit the pay wall. For the sake of giving new players enough exposure to test out all the avenues of gameplay, I think we’d see an increased retention of new players. Obviously you just rolled out the expert systems to address some of this. but paywall.
This will also benefit veteran players, as they would have more new players in their fleets for pvp etc. More bodies makes for more opportunity for fun gameplay for everyone involved.
Unlock t2 frigates for alphas, and they have use in strat ops, outside of being cheap punching bags.

[Clary_Daemon]

I would also suggest there is a 25-50k sp bonus for first login to the forums. Bring the new players here so all these veterans can help them, and make use of all the help threads.

[Xeux]

Oh.My.God. This idea is truly vile.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

@Clary_Daemon

Increase passive SP gains by 25% when logged in.

upgrade to Omega or use implants to increase the gains. Omega gets 2X training speed.

@Clary_Daemon

Increase alpha passive sp cap from 5 million sp to 10 million, and increase the max from 20m to 25m.

No, and No. You are essentially asking for more freebies handed out. I say we restrict back to 2 week trial period.

@Clary_Daemon

For the sake of giving new players enough exposure to test out all the avenues of gameplay

If they want to test all the game play, you can become an Omega. Alphas can abuse the game in a lot of negative ways, thats why L4 sec missions were cut from Alphas.

@Clary_Daemon

Unlock t2 frigates for alphas, and they have use in strat ops, outside of being cheap punching bags

No. Free players should not have access to more powerful ships. Bad enough they have access to faction ships, which in some cases are better than T2’s.

IDK why you are crying about the limit of 20m vs 25m for limit when you won’t even purchase with ISK, the Alpha injectors to go beyond the 5 mil…

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Well, increasing the alpha SP cap and training rate would probably be a huge benefit to botters and RMT’ers, as they are probably constantly replacing banned accounts with new ones. Thus, I’m extremely reluctant to see something like this apply to alpha accounts.

Second, I seriously doubt that a bonus for just being logged in is going to have a dramatic effect on the number of people actually playing the game. I mean, we might see a large increase in characters sitting in stations doing nothing, but that’s not the same thing. And, I’m not sure there’s any way around this. Like, if the bonus only applied while undocked, I’d just warp my characters to safes, and cloak them up. If it only applied to characters while undocked and uncloaked, I’d just put my toons punishers with oversized prop mods, and have them fly off into space. And so on. In other words, I wouldn’t play any more than I normally do, but I would try to game the system so that I could maximize my SP gains.

Don’t get me wrong, I can’t get enough SP, and would certainly take advantage of this change. However, I’m not so sure that it would have a a significant beneficial effect on the game. Mostly, I just think it will waste a bunch of electricity, and maybe put a little extra strain on the servers.

[Clary_Daemon]

Omega gets 2x training speed regardless of activity. Same with implants. Skill injectors cost isk, and with the recent moves to decrease isk gains, it’s not really reasonable for brand new alpha players. These changes impact new players far worse than veterans, even while making new alts.

I am indeed asking for more freebies. I get it. you want this game to remain a niche game with decades long training queues to get to the level veterans are at.
I am against that mentality completely. When I talk about eve to my game friends, they all laugh and say what a ■■■■ show this game is. They retain that opinion from trying eve years ago.
While you may enjoy a dwindling population, many of us don’t. I’d love to play eve in 2031.
Veteran players get to enjoy the advantages of 18 years of skill training, as well as experience on how to fit and play eve. The learning curve pushes 90% of new players away. The skill points barrier pushes even more away.

Testing all the avenues of gameplay is what will keep them playing as we lose more and more veterans. Your mentality, and those like yours will see eve dead within a decade. The gaming culture is not the same as it was in 2004. This game and its culture needs to adapt, or die. I advocate for adapt.

They should have access to T2 frigates so that they can experience the full spectrum on small gang warfare, as well as larger strat ops. Face it, for a good chunk of the sommunity, pvp is above all. Alphas, especially new players and not just alts, can only fill the punching bag role.
Sure, faction ships are available and sometimes better than base factions, but they cant fully skill into any ship. That means they’re probably not better than t2 ships.
You’re a veteran player, and you look at it from the aspect of high skillpoints.

I am not crying about the hard cap of 20m sp. I am saying that the current soft cap and hard cap needs to be raised, and t2 frigates should be available. I am not saying any larger ships, or triglavian/edencom ships be made available.
Again, when we consider the future of this beloved game, and factor in the entire gaming culture, you need to have a juicy carrot. After they come running after that juicy carrot, they have to have enough content to remain. The whole concept of having a limited community is contrary to the goals of any gaming company, and should be to anyone interested in continued access to the game.
As for me buying injectors for my alpha alts, all I can say is that my alts are usually only alpha until they hit 5m sp. Once they hit 5m, I sub and finish training before I ever undock them.
Personally, I find the skill queue to be an interesting and engaging part of playing eve. Trying to maximize training gains, while reducing time as much as possible without buying injectors.

[Clary_Daemon]

I see your point.
I would say the base rule should be with activity. Logged in, sitting in a station and doing nothing wouldn’t count. Sitting in a station and engaging in market orders and such would count.
I’m not exactly sure how this would benefit botters and RMT’ers a whole lot. I assume CCP is looking for botting, and automating for long periods of time would only increase the likelihood of being caught and banned.
Of course people would figure out how to game the system, but honestly thats just part of being in the eve community. All of us try to find ways to max the gains available. I think that isnt as significant a deterrent for the proposed system, while it is a significant gain for new players.
We need to draw them in, then slowly change their game style from instant gratification and insignificant deaths. Unless we appeal to the current game culture, eve will die within a decade.

[Mkikaden_Tiragen]

@Clary_Daemon

I am not crying about the hard cap of 20m sp. I am saying that the current soft cap and hard cap needs to be raised, and t2 frigates should be available.

There is no soft and hard cap.

There is a limit of 5m SP after which Alpha characters stop being able to gain skills via the training queue. That is a cap on training, not SP, as Alphas can still gain SP from other sources (events, log in rewards, injectors).

The commonly cited ‘20m SP “limit”’ is not the maximum SP an Alpha character may have; it is the sum of all the SP that can be applied to skills that Alpha pilots can use based on the individual skill limits for Alpha characters. It’s actually less than 20m SP, based on the SP multiplier data and Alpha limits on EVE Uni - I calculated it as 16,169,810 SP available to Alpha pilots at this time. I wasn’t active when this all rolled out, so I’m not sure if CCP overstated the possible SP or if there have been changes to accessible levels/multipliers over time that dropped this number.

If an Alpha waits to go Omega until they train up to the 5m SP limit, they can max out all the rest of the Alpha-available skills in 5 months as an Omega if they have optimal attributes and +5 implants - even at the highest monthly rate of $15 USD that’s all of $75 - much cheaper than buying 224 Alpha Injectors to fill up the Alpha SP tank (that’s 4480 PLEX for around $160, assuming the player does not buy any excess PLEX, or around $175 if buying the Injectors outright). From there, well, if they want Omega skills/access they really should be paying for the whole game.

Since I was adding things up anyway: total possible assignable SP for an Omega pilot is 445,725,675. At optimal attribute mapping with +5 implants on an Omega clone, that is over 18 years of training (excluding boosters and various sources of free SP). Assuming a player subbed annually but had no other pricing discounts, giving a cost of ~$11 USD per month (annual sub rate), that’s almost $2500 (pre-tax) just in sub costs to reach that total of SP, not accounting for player time, the ISK necessary to get all the skill books (many of which are not seeded on the market), the implants, and the loss of content benefits from having to spend all that time in a training clone. If someone spent 6 hours a day in a non-training clone, that time expands to over 25 years.

EDIT: Ok, not 25 years - I flubbed my calculation there and removed all training for 6 hours a day instead of just implant buffs for 6 hours a day - but still longer than 18 years. I don’t feel like re-doing the math for the exact additional time right now, but I’ll try to remember and edit in the fix tomorrow.

Also, I suppose I should mention that Alpha accounts can acquire SP past 16m, but they are unable to apply it toward Omega skills while in an Alpha state. So one can have an Alpha clone with SP beyond 16m SP and only Alpha skills trained - the rest of the SP would be unallocated SP.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Well, being able to train more skills as an alpha will allow botters and RMT’ers to either earn more as an alpha, or to earn more once they take a new account omega in order to replace a banned account (for example, the ability to train drone’s interfacing IV as an alpha was apparently removed for this reason). It sucks for the legitimate alpha players out there, but you can’t ignore how bad actors are going to abuse a change either.

Anyway, I’m much more receptive to the idea of awarding SP for actually doing stuff in game (i.e. skilling spree type stuff). Unfortunately, I’m not sure if CCP is going to be on board. For example, they could have given out expert systems for doing things like completing the career agent missions, the SoE epic arc, and/or newbro oriented live events. Instead, they decided to monetize it. So, yeah, I personally think that opportunities to gain SP through game play can be a good thing if implemented correctly, but I’m also not going to hold my breath. I dunno. Maybe if you can come up with a good proposal, you’ll be able to start building support for the idea. Be sure to bring your A game, however. When designing any proposal, you should ask how it might be abused or exploited. And for this particular idea, you should probably ask how it would influence botters, RMT’ers, player retention, and CCP’s bottom line. Some other people are also of the opinion that skill training should take a long time. I agree to a certain extent, but 20 years to train all skills might be a wee bit excessive. So, there’s probably room to speed things up a little bit (especially for younger players).

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Clary_Daemon

I am not crying about the hard cap of 20m sp. I am saying that the current soft cap and hard cap needs to be raised, and t2 frigates should be available. I am not saying any larger ships, or triglavian/edencom ships be made available.

Why T2 frigates? I mostly fly T2 frigates, apart from the occasional T2 logi cruiser. If you give T2 frigates to Alphas I can stop paying without much impact on my gameplay.

I don’t think that’s a good idea.

[The_Black_Vegetable]

@Clary_Daemon

I see your point.
I would say the base rule should be with activity. Logged in, sitting in a station and doing nothing wouldn’t count. Sitting in a station and engaging in market orders and such would count.

This makes sense - if Training for SP is meant to be like real world schooling then it makes sense putting training into practice would shorten time to train.

[Jint_Hikaru]

@Clary_Daemon

I see your point.
I would say the base rule should be with activity. Logged in, sitting in a station and doing nothing wouldn’t count. Sitting in a station and engaging in market orders and such would count.

So, essentially instead of logging off when someone finished playing for the evening, they should go and orbit the jita statue or pop a cloak and slowboat in a HiSec System all night.

Just to maximize their SP gain.

Sounds like a wonderful addition to the game… [/sarcasm]

@Clary_Daemon

Veteran players get to enjoy the advantages of 18 years of skill training, as well as experience on how to fit and play eve. The learning curve pushes 90% of new players away. The skill points barrier pushes even more away.

This old and tired argument again, I guess its time someone blew the dust off it and reposted it on the forums… again…
The beauty of the Eve SP system is that you can be as skilled as a Veteran in specific ship types relatively quickly. Yet you do not loose out of the journey in progressing your character through the game and up the ship tree.

I can guarantee that 100% of those veterans you are talking about were new players at one point, and were not pushed away by the ‘skill point barrier’.

What this boils down to is, you are seeing people who have played for years longer than you with bigger ships than you, and you want it NOW!!!

[Clary_Daemon]

Those veterans were new when the game was new.
It’s 2021 now. The gaming culture, for better or worse, is immeasurably different than when eve came out.
Adapt or die is one of the key lessons you learn in eve. As such, ccp is trying to adapt while also trying to revert to how eve used to be.
Nostalgia has its place, but should not be taken seriously. You will never get the same feelings you did 10+ years ago.

[Clary_Daemon]

Sure, you could stop paying, and be limited to what skills you have or inject into. You’ll also only be able to run 1 character, and face all the other restrictions.
For example, as it is now, your ability to rapidly target and hold multiple targets is laughable.
You can get t2 weapons, and most modules, but you can’t fly a frigate past 4 skill, so your ability to change the tides of battle are lower than if you could take advantage of t2 frigates.

[Clary_Daemon]

I fly the biggest ships in eve, so your point about what I want is moot. I spent the last 3 years getting my cap skills filled out.

I would propose a system like this; have a 30 second booster slot that increases your sp gain, but after 30 seconds of inactivity it drops. Similar to gate cloak.
It only resumes again after you begin interacting with eve.

That would promote active gameplay, and reduce potential benefits for bots (easier to spot timed interactions to keep it going).

[Edmorte_Fehrnah]

Communist ideas.

Ofc looking with naive eyes all is cool… Think another 5 minutes and see how all of this will become an alt crap fest.

With the excuse of my forum colegues /thread

[Clary_Daemon]

Eve is built for alts anyway.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Clary_Daemon

Increase passive SP gains by 25% when logged in.

@ISD_Hazard Should this be combined into the AFK Cloaking thread?