State of The Game, 2020 Edition

Communications Center General Discussion
121

We actually agree on more than I would have guessed.

My arguments are exactly this, with the exception that I think it used to work and now it doesn’t.

Can flipping met all your requirements. It was progressive.

You can’t flip cans in a T2 or T3 boat… nobody will shoot. Merlin’s and badgers are the smart money for can flipping… you have to look weak enough to ignite the opportunistic spirit in your opponents.

The 15 minute commitment to combat against a single merlin is a great way for young and old players to dabble. And, honestly, even a skilled pilot can only get so much performance out of the crap you have to fly when flipping. The risk on behalf of the flipper is real. I’ve run away with my butt on fire hundreds of times because the merlin just didn’t have the horsepower for what I was trying to do.

Also, a portion of the field that you were flipping was always “baiters” who were setting traps. That just ratcheted up the tension and interest…

I personally like that neutral reps don’t work anymore because I’ve always preferred solo play. I find them artless.

The argument that I’d make is that ganking never rose to prominence until can flipping and baiting were stomped out. It was a protest at first… but it turned out to be profitable I guess.

CCP can’t eliminate ganking without admitting they’ve given up on the sandbox model. However, if they bring back a fun mechanic that’s more fair to the pve crowd and more interesting to the pvp crowd, they could replace it with something better.

I think a return of can flipping would downsize the ganking substantially for one specific reason. Ganking is mechanical and repetitive while can flipping in interactive, unpredictable, exciting, and fun.

I think a return to can flipping would help every segment of players in this game.

Mo

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122

A dried up husk of a ex player? Is that the look we’re going for? Clone jerky, mild flavour?

123

Yes. I would pretty much agree with that. My primary problem with EVE design is that there isn’t, in effect, versions of can-flipping, and other inducements to engage in risk-taking behaviours, that cause similar activity in low-sec and null. And other mechanics doing similar things for WH.

The problem is, and the reason EVE ‘stopped working’ for so many players, is that early on in the game people are still exploring all the niches, mathing things out, making guides. The game isn’t full of 10-years in T3s and ‘T1’ frigates with T2 setups and implant/drug boosts. So yes it’s wild wild west for a while.

But after a while, the guides come out, the vets are there, the risks are known. And once “can-flipping” becomes unprofitable for miners (because even if they don’t ‘take the bait’, they still lose their can), and once the ‘PvPers’ learn that PvP is a loss-creating activity except in high-sec where the risks are more quantifiable - then the hens stop coming to the henhouse, the weasels have no eggs to suck, and everybody starts blaming it all on everything but poor game design. It’s the carebears, it’s the gankes, it’s CCP listening to the whiners in the forums, it’s the investors… none of those are the issue.

The issue is that PvP isn’t inherently rewarding, so a lot of PvPers need easy targets in fairly safe space. For the resource-builders, risk-taking doesn’t really pay off (in general), so they look to minimize risks. For the potentially interested gamer (once the game matures), if they start downloading EVE and decide to do a little googling on it while the download happens - they learn EVE isn’t actually fun or welcoming. And they never even log in after doing the download (CCP’s own stats show this).

So yes - there’s room for all those playstyles, if you design for them. And there’s also plenty of room to fail, if you put a bunch of half-assed systems in place and then when the game fails to engage players, pretend it’s “players playing wrong”.

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124

That makes about as much sense as saying a restaurant doesn’t care if people tell them their food tastes like ■■■■ because they are a business and want to make money.

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125

We’re talking about different experiences. The Eve I loved died 8 years ago.

I have no animosity for pve players and I think they’re mostly only pve players because they haven’t experienced how much fun you can have plying solo and small team warfare in between pve sessions.

The problem is that the solo and small team scene was removed by crimewatch.

That left new generations who think Eve pvp is either ganking or fighting a fleet of 60 experienced players in T3 bling boats. If I was coming up now, I’d hate pvp.

You can’t win without betting more than a young player has… and without experience it’s just a losing proposolition.

I was pve for my first year… and my friends and I tried to kill can flippers once or twice a month. We only had to bet a little isk. It wasn’t expensive to dabble and there was no long term commitment. I wasn’t very successful in that first year… but when I got bored of pve I put more effort into it and started to find success.

Then I found out fighting in those little
Boats was so much fun I liked the game a lot more… and I started teaching and fighting full time.

There were a dozen ways to jet can mine with no risk at all. The choice to mine into a can in a belt was either the acceptance that some cans would be looted or laziness bordering on silly.

And you get to look at your opponents ship before you engage.

That was a game both sides could play.

I had a bait vexor with 2 webs, 500 drone dps, and 30k hit points… and it would mine at a very nice rate! It killed many a flipper.

126

You mean like every corporate fast food restaurant on the planet?

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127

So i will just explain somethign very fast.
And it will answer to everything here beacause this discussion happen in a lot of place in real world when you try to explain ecosystem to children.
And beacause you are not children (i suppose) i will just you the scientific explain of how work a prey/predator ecosystem. Anb blackout (and not only) , proof to us Eve work in the same way.

What does it means ?
It means more prey you have, more predator you will have. If for a reaosn or an other you start kill to many prey, predator will increase … and suddenly decrease. (exemple game balance). After predator will decrease…

Now let s have a look of how you could have a lot of prey and a lot of hunter :
-Change war dec : done need to be adjust but, better than previous
-ESS : Good idea , bad execution. I have answer in a reddit post how to make equilibre of this. But basically 15% to 30 % depend of some factor. (help hunter to finance roam).
-DBS : Very good idea, but can’t go under 110%, coulkd increase with some factor to 140% max (insentive to live near 0.0 NPC, more dangerous place).
-Cloacking : Remove permanent cloacking, actually we have other way to make pve player take more risk without that. Could take me a very long post to explain how you could change thing to permit bad hunter to trap farmer. (good hunter already caught farmer). But cloacking (or inty speed, or all other way to maintain in hostille system with no risk must be remove. it’s a free grieffing thing like wardec for a lot of player).
-Remove all change since first anom reduction in spawn time (few month before blackout): So roll back cyno , roll back anom, mineral , resistance change . You have other way to reduce wealth of people by making they play and not they become bored or dock.
-Add mecanic who make more you farm , easier you are to caught (basically it’s the idea i explain who could permit remove perma cloack, will take me a looooonnnngggggggg page to explain so not here).
-DBS by dangerosity is not enought to draw war, but take exemple on drug, before CCP release and offer a shitons of drug some region have an interest to be conquer for this constellation… we totally could imaginate some region specificity who make some 0.0 “very premium” and “very interesting” to force people to invade. A shitons of idea, no place to write here. AND YES BEFORE I FORGET I HAVE ON IDEA WHO INVOLVE POSSIBILITY OF temporary and controlled BLACKOUT as weapon for hunter, but require some effort to activate and could be counter by defender (at huge price) . If you are interested CCP you know how to contact me… but you will not until he dismiss or find a new product owner right ?
-Reimbursse all veterant (i do’nt care of duplication you’re fault CCP to be as bad) for citadel destroy with no asset safety if they was no connected since the update. And auto asset safety if needed all asset in citadel if the vet don’t return since this change (asset safety only if citadel is destroy).

Done what i write upside. Send to other project all game designer who thin era of chaos was a good thing to the game. You will have trust of player who could come back.
With the incrase of prey, the increase of incensitive to make kill , you will have conflict driver for large battle and for daylli roam.
Problem solve.

128

And you still eat it and pay for it?

129

I sure don’t. Ignorant savages do.

130

It’s like the top of the charts.
Absolute ■■■■, but too many people just don’t know better.

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131

There was.

Here’s the dev blog:

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132

Those equations make several assumptions.

  • there are only 2 species
  • the prey species is born and then dies through either predation or natural causes
  • the predator species is born and the birth rate is positively influenced by the rate of predation on the prey species, and that they die naturally
  • that the prey consumption rate by a predator is directly proportional to the prey abundance.

These assumptions suggest that the prey only dies from predation or things like old age, they also suggest that the predator only dies from things like old age and that their reproductive rate is directly influenced by how much prey they kill.

Furthermore, they also suggest that predator feeding is limited only by the amount of prey in the environment. While this may be realistic assumption with low numbers of prey, it isn’t a realistic assumption at high prey densities where predators are limited; the predator prey ratio in Eve is vastly skewed towards prey, in that there are far more people who partake of activities that make them the prey than there are people who prey on others.

You should really read the entire article and associated papers before spouting your nonsense; especially the footnotes where there are links to stuff that question the validity of the equations

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133

You should really see what happen during blackout… really.

134

I saw what happened, people didn’t log in; presumably because they considered the loss of local made their activities too risky.

It still doesn’t make your equational crutch correct, or even relevant.

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135

No no after what happen after farmer leave 0.0 , and stop connect. Just remimber… a lot of post who was speackign of “boring game” , “no more target”, “to hard to find pvp i leave game”.
I don’t said to litterraly apply the same equation.
I said understand this equation who is true for eve , for biology for a lot of thing. (you have farmer in a system, pvp player come , farmer disapear, more hunter come … farmer come back).
But beside this you have assumption of : No prey no predator. And when you read forum you see a lot of people who don’t understand this simple fact.

And you want the proof it’s correct ? and when i see this post “carebear don’t predict what will happen it’s always the opposite?”.
Maybe pvpbear don’t predict. Maybe carebear. Good player could. Just search in archive the first player WEEKS before blackout who have predict all thing, and the incoming cyno change when prey will near totally disapear… Who could have predict that in advance during time pvp player predict the “return of all player of eve”… who really who … i have is name in m y head …

I let you search. And i let you guess what kind of equation he modify to predict all reaction and the magnitude of the player loss.

136

I really wonder what kind of nonsense he’ll come up with in a year from now …
… where he finds totally new reasons why CCP needs to change course …
… and all the old reasons he had, which all were wrong …
… are long forgotten.

They’re all like this.

Isn’t it funny? :slight_smile:

137

This answer of so called devs worth less than a pile of dogshit

Biggest issue in eve (before blackout) was Fozzie Sov but devs are blind and dumb as ■■■■ so we have what we have

BTW did they fired Fozzie already?

138

I don’t have that assumption, you do.

And when you read forum you see a lot of people who don’t understand this simple fact.

It’s not a fact, it’s exactly what you called it, an assumption.

@Solstice_Projekt I like how he’s word blind to anything that doesn’t align with his “facts” and his attempts to back them up with irrelevant equations full of assumptions.

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140

You are realist on you’re situation with all people wqho explain all you’re number are missinterpreted and give you fact. Nice to see you admit you have a problem.
If you want i could help you to find a specialist to speack with him.

141

I wonder if Tippia is bored, and how much will it cost for a couple of months of her forum services.

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