Survey on Capsuleers' affiliation through time

It is quite naive to believe that any change in affiliations is simply because of treason.

I expect that kind of ignorance from the Amarr, not from a Caldari officer. How disappointing.

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Again, no

Multiple affiliation is kind of a edge case. However, as I said before, the field “Any comment?” is there to add data to the answers

Indeed.

Why gallente propagandists always try to insult me by blaming me in some nonsence like being ignorant? Are they so incompetent to actually counter any of my opinions or arguments with anything except pathetic ad hominem attacks?

Now lets see who is ignorant.

Do you aware that every Caldari citizen is obliged for military service? And that means they pledge their allegiance to the State. But no, it doesn’t seem you even try to read into that, immediately jumping to insult others who said something that doesn’t fit your narrow world view.

Pity.

Gallente propagandist? At least insult me with something resembling a fact instead of this lazy attempt. The briefest glance at my history and it would be obvious that I believe Gallente ideals to be as foolish and wishful as the Amarr’s. You’re a loyal soldier to the State Ms. Kim. I would never question that of you, so do not question it of me either.

I’m not sure which corporation failed to educate you properly on the finer points of political associations verses loyalty. I know Ishukone offered extensive education on cultural differences. We like to understand our rivals rather than paint them all with the same brush. It serves no purpose to pretend that all empires have the same regulations or views as we do.

Firstly affiliations and loyalty are two separate things. One can be loyal to one entity and still remain affiliated with one or several others. Caldari officers are placed in strategic positions throughout new eden and are affiliated with those entities while remaining ultimately in service to the state.

Secondly, you are correct that all Caldari complete military service and therefore have pledged their allegiance to the state at some point, however the other three empires do not all have the same requirement and are free to change citizenship or affiliations through the course of one’s life without committing treason. You can’t apply Caldari culture or laws to all other empires.

Thirdly, it gets muddy if you have multiple loyalties. You swear loyalty to the State, to your mega corp, to your family. What if a traitor takes over the State and tries to execute your family? Ok he’s a traitor and therefore doesn’t deserve loyalty by default, but what if half your brethren don’t see it that way. Whoever prevails often makes the losing side the traitors. Heth’s reign was enough to show us that.

So no, a change in affiliation does not equate to treason 100% of the time, and saying it does is ignorant which was my point. Perhaps I should have been more specific in that the idea is ignorant and not insulted you personally, but I think you’re smart enough to realise that it is rare an instance is so black and white.

The most this survey can be accused of is simply being too vague to gather useful data.

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Attacking loyal soldiers of the State is attacking the State. Slandering loyal soldiers of the State is what gallente propagandists do. There are no other reason to slander a soldier than for the sake of propaganda for hostile faction.

See? What I told about. A typical slander of a person who knows little to nothing about my education but yet bawls on all GalNet about “failed” education.
Gallente propaganda, dumb and baseless as always, no more, no less.

Ishukone? That Mega that really should be trialed for collaboration with enemy? You’re making my slippers laugh.

Except Heth was a hero and never sided with enemies of the State. He was devoted and loyal to the end.
Traitors are people like Mens Reppola, who crawled to Gallente to ask for planet access instead of kicking occupants out like Executor Heth has planned.
No other Megacorp CEO would commit such an atrocious deed like Reppola. He is the most shameful and rotten person in CEP and I hope Ishukone will be cleansed soon from his influence.
On the other hand, Heth did something than no other Megacorp CEO would do: he joined the fight planetside among other soldiers like a regular soldiers, while wearing CEO authorities. That makes him real hero.

And yet is that not what you did recently in conversation with myself? Slander loyal Agents of the New Order as criminals? Why, I hope not all of the Caldari ‘State’ militia are as hypocritical as yourself, Ms Kim…

If I would slander anyone, I would disgrace myself, that is unacceptable.
Agents of so-called “New Order” were found committing illegal deeds and were marked as criminals by CONCORD.
If it is by some awkward reason not obvious to you, do you need me to put picture references of CODE agents getting criminal tags to show you what these people were doing?

So I am a criminal because you and yours say I am a criminal? That is very sound logic there, Ms Kim.

As James 315 himself wrote:

A government is considered legitimate if it has the enduring ability to send men with guns to kill or imprison other people. Upon this power hangs all the law. There is no need for philosophy here: When a miner is bumped out of mining range, he no longer has the ability to mine. […] Therefore, I can stop people from mining whenever I want. Since the miners want to mine ice, and since I alone decide whether or not they can, I command them. It’s really that simple.

What is different between you and I? We are both the guns wielded by our respected Empires. The difference is that your masters were in place before mine. And as the Gallente were before yours…

I didn’t call you specifically a criminal yet so far, for that I would need evidence of your personal violation of State or CONCORD law.

There is a difference, a significant one.
I do protect legitimate government, operating in the areas under our souvereignty or against governments we are at war with and on their territory.

Where is your souvereignty, excuse me?
And without declaring war on Caldari State your fights within our borders against civilian vessels is illegitimate activity. Depending on who you are for these acts we will consider you either enemy or a criminal. Without official war, you aren’t an enemy. You’re just a criminal. (I mean you not you personally, of course - for that I lack information to judge).

Where was yours when the Caldari declared independence?

It was declared on the colonized by Megacorporation systems that held no sovereignty prior. The gates leading to newly formed State space were safeguarded by our vessels to prevent Gallente claiming souvereigny there and contesting that. They declared war on us, however and we had to fight for it. We won our independence, but lost homeworld, that was occupied by them for two hundreds of years before it was liberated by Tibus Heth.

With new war Gallente occupants once again are trying to contest our souvereignty over Black Rise - the latest region that Caldari enterpreneurs have explored and colonized. These gallente bastards just LOVE to try to contest something others have developed.

But we will fight and protect what is ours, whatever the cost.

So, Ms Kim, in essence, I am a criminal because the old Empires don’t recognise the claims of sovereignty from James 315 despite them getting their sovereignty in the exact same way. I have no right to police our laws in ‘your space’ because you police your ‘laws’ in our space.

And yet, despite all of this, you do not see the hypocrisy that falls from your lips with every word. But the people do.

The people do.

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I look forward to seeing the results!

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After reaching close to 80 answers it’s time to close the survey. In a few days I’ll update with a report.

Then, I have to ask (again!) @Diana_Kim to stop filling my threads, which are just scientific and in no way political threads, with your political ramblings; please carry your political ramblings somewhere else. Same goes @Ange_des_Larmes for the next time.

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I’m looking forward to see the report. Let me know if you want me to have a look at it this time as well.

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Yeah, this being is waiting too…

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As others have already said, I am also really looking forward to seeing the results. As a off note im really glad that you took the time out of you schedule to make these as they do show some really intersecting data

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You impress me with your conviction to saying two so very contradicting statements. By your own standards you are the Gallente Propagandist.

It is not your place to determine who is a loyal soldier of the State, that would be the State’s. If Ishukone was traitorous then the other Megacorps would have taken action. Unless it is your claim that every Megacorp in the State is incorrect in its judgement.

Heth however has been labeled as a traitor and enemy of the state by every single Megacorp. Stating that he is a hero simply reveals your true beliefs beneath the veil of a loyal grunt soldier, deviant from the State in whichever way you decide is acceptable at the time.

I don’t blame you for this. It’s admirable that you think for yourself. Simply you prove the exact point I was attempting to make. You are prime example of how two very differing opinions in the State can conflict and yet still both be loyal to the overall goal. Conformity is weakness. Ideas and beliefs are there to be challenged, but they make you no less loyal if the end goals match. This is why loyalty and affiliations are compatible.

Heth has many admirable leadership qualities that should be acknowledged, but he also had several severe flaws. Leading his forces from the front where he could have easily been killed, would have been an excellent strategy in space IF he was a Capsuleer. Inspiration and dedication to his people is an excellent leadership quality. It is however an abysmal combat strategy when you are a dictator with no ability to cheat death. You don’t put your entire leadership on the front lines and give the enemy the perfect opportunity to cut the head of the snake. You risk the collapse and stability of your entire empire if you die. His dedication to his people clouded his combat judgement. The fact that the Gallente couldn’t take him out is simply their failing.

Similarly, prowess in combat is the simplest display of power. Brutal and quick, it serves a purpose. Yet it is often less effective than subtlety and cunning. Heth’s brazen leadership temporarily made us stronger, but his incompetence almost bankrupted the largest Megacorp in the State. Why? Because he let his ambition and hatred blind him. Heth’s recklessness caused the destruction of the Shiigeru. He underestimated the military strength of the enemy. It was only by sheer luck that titan didn’t completely destroy Arcurio. Thankfully Ishukone was able to regain control of the city and put it back into Caldari hands afterwards.

You will never beat the Gallente through sheer power. Ishukone understands this. You have to beat them using their own ideals and rules against them. It is only through dominating them in their own system that we will truly win. Defeat is a state of mind. No-one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality, and that will never happen with CONCORD policing this mock war, so it must be accomplished in more subtle ways.

But by all means we’ll continue this charade. It is good training after all.

To Riika Okaimanen. I apologise for the derailment of your thread and will continue the conversation elsewhere if Ms. Kim is so inclined. I am looking forward to the results of your study.

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Templis Dragonaurs.