I’d happily give you that option just so you can spend a day in L3-L4 missions uneffectively running them with slow align and lock times and all that. Might just make you remember how it was being a new player.
Hauling services. – too expensive for new players
Orca. – too expensive, higher skill demand
Freighters. – same
Bowhead. – same
Relocate by ones-self. – EXACTLY, that’s why T1 SMB Industrial
Relocate via sell&buy-anew. – in many cases same or more effort + other reasons mentioned before
I’m asking for an entry-level ship that can transport a few smaller entry-level ships. You’re comparing it with something… which you probably wouldn’t want to fly anyway, because Null, because J-Space, because BS getting catched.
Come up with something better if you feel you must hide your choice of ignorance behind lame comparisons. Thanks.
A T1 cruiser, T1 frigate, Venture and the hauler you put them in have a combined value around 10 million ISK. Not exactly a profitable gank. I suspect you could fly back and forth between Uedama and Niarga all day without enticing anyone to shoot at you!
I’m not sure everyone here is playing with a full deck… Let’s tick these off.
Newbs don’t know about them, and wouldn’t want to pay what would be a sizeable chunk for them either.
Way too expensive. These guys are looking at the Maelstrom as being a distant target, and you’re suggesting they spend over double the amount, train off-goal for almost a month, just to move their stuff?! Orcas rock, but they are not newb-suitcases.
and 4) Trolling, surely. In case of full retard, break glass and see (2)
This is what they do now. It sucks and turns potential customers away since it’s just a time sink.
Also doable now, but they will get terrible prices since they won’t be in a hub, or have to wait months to sell at an OK price. Also, newbs get attached to their ships.
No, because that would be imbalanced you halfwit.
Are people just saying ‘no’ because they want new guys to have to buy Plex for injectors and Orcas?
Either that or they don’t remember being a new player. Or they remember what a senseless crushing time-consuming effort it was to play like that and instead of seeing that it was unreasonable and wanting better for new generations, they’d like them to endure the same. Not because it makes sense, just because they follow the suffer-suffer-logic following which parents who got beaten might find excuses to beat their kids.
Also to those saying "they can just sell their ships and buy new ones"
Newbros are attached to their ships, he’ll I still have my original newbeans mission reward ships (except an executioner lol)… and at the time I had to move them 1 by 1 over 20 some jumps because I was too poor and didn’t know about courrier contracts.
I’m pretty sure most of you were in the exact same situation
EVE needs more meaningful choices and this would be one of them. We could need sorting in areas like meta-mods where we have a situation of useless redundancy. We’ve shown the opposite is the case for T1 SMB Industrials. They could have a place. And you basically show this yourself, by mentioning courier contracts. They exist, they have advantages and disadvantages, so having an alternate choice does indeed make sense. Hence, T1 SMB Industrials.
Since I’m not a rich and powerful entity of state and business, who can create a complex and fine-grained propaganda web, that includes several sublayers of subtle identity-building and appealing to certain basic insecurities you might or might not have, I can’t make you think what I want you to think, while you actually think it is your own thought. So yeah, let’s disagree.
That being said, in evolutionary Biology there is the conviction that while the majority of humans develop rather clear primary sexual organs, each of the two “extremes” takes over things from the other which the other necessarily needs, while it is useless for itself. That’s - short version - the reason why men have nipples.
So even if we disagree and even you don’t see any sense in it for yourself, if there is use for other people, you could still support the idea, even just because you are already happy with your own options to choose.
Ah yes, the stereotypical “he quit the game, he MUST HAVE liked that ship so much.” No, the game just didnt have much draw for me to stay around, even as a hisec mission runner. Now then, stop being an assumption maker, will ya?
While I am usually in favor of new types of T1 haulers (cough, coughFuel Transport )… this isn’t one that I care for. There’s no NEED for it, and it steps into the roles of other ships… and professions.
If pilots want to move their stuff 40 systems over, they have multiple options already:
Repackage and haul.
Fly each ship individually (shuttling)
Get an existing ship with a maintenance bay.
Pay someone else to move the stuff.
Sell and re-buy/remake.
Or any combination of any of these.
When I moved around within HS looking for a good place to set up shop in my early career, I sold most of my stuff, and shuttled the rest. Took about 4 hours.
Moving to Null, I sold everything except two cloakies - shuttled those (with stuff I wanted to keep - like BP’s), and rebuilt everything else starting with a Venture.
These options are open to players of all stripes AND it teaches that nothing in EvE is permanent. That’s a lesson that needs to be learned early.
I get that everyone has their personal favorites, but you kind of contradict yourself here. There are possibilities to transport fuel (T1 Hauler, T2 Hauler, JF) and still you’d like to have it, implying that there would be more “NEED” for it than for a T1 SMB Industrial.
Your list of things that you call options for people have mostly been discussed before and I still think while they are valid as options, there should be one more option: move a small amount of assembled ships yourself.
Every other option you mention is at the very least not new player friendly, as was shown when the same points have been mentioned above by others.
I wonder about some details, like how many jumps, how many ships, what kind of stuff did you bring etc. Most important: how long were you in game at that point. And still: 4 hours work for something that should be doable in 2 or less, because it doesn’t ■■■■ with anyone elses gameplay, is purely a time-sink. Time-sinks without any reward are punishment for trying to explore the game. And that’s bad.
On top of that maybe the times have changed. Today you’d need to first go to one of very few hubs in order to either sell/re-buy (which would thus be senseless) or find someone to haul the stuff for any reasonable price (which will be too high for T1 stuff).
How does “Fly each ship individually” teach that? How does “Pay someone else to move the stuff”? How do the other so-called options? Isn’t it true that moving through EVE with your stuff when you are new is often enough a senseless grind that teaches you instead: there is one thing permament in EVE and that is the grind in places you wouldn’t expect it.
p.s. “grind” doesn’t equal “hard”. EVE should be hard, incredibly hard even. Forcing players to use their brains and evolve, adapt and go beyond. It should deliver on all these promises and not fill the gap with grind
No ship with a 300k SMA is going to be newbie friendly either. the price point you seem to be imagining for this ship simply isn’t realistic. It isn’t going to be comparable to the existing T1 haulers when it has at least 6 times the cargo space.
As for this, it does. We’ve explained repeatedly how it would impact on other peoples professions, and the time sink does have a reward since you don’t ‘need’ all those ships at your final destination, so you are rewarded with the utility of having such a range of ships there.
You just aren’t interested in listening, you keep dismissing reasoned arguments as ‘opinions’, and moving the goalposts further and further, demanding more reasoning from us while providing no more yourself, just a plea for the ‘new bro’.
That’s just lazy-thinking. As if any mechanic in EVE would withstand a scientifically-critical reflection, even if only looking at the inter-mechanical relations. Just think of them like some form of Space-Tolltruck without the ramp and you’ll find a way it fits in your head.
No you have not and the few other people that tried haven’t either. There is absolutetly no direct competition with pilots of Bowheads or Orcas. New Players cannot afford either, they can also not afford to pay twice the worth of their ships to have them moved.
So why did CCP introduce things like Multifit? Because senseless time-sinks suck. You come around the corner and manifest that players “don’t need all these ships”. Right… errr
I asked for opinions and heard people say they remember being new and that it would have helped and I hear people who don’t like it. From the people who don’t like it I mostly heard that there would be other options. First off, that is not an argument for itself, since there are many options for everything in game. Why does the Caracal exist if there is already a Moa? That’s your logic and it fails hard. Also the concrete proposals aren’t at all New Player friendly.
P.S. To all the people who have been “new” a couple of years ago: you can’t compare that at all. The economic imbalance in EVE is drastically increasing and it has deep implications on new and newer players, most importantly limiting their choices if it comes to (PVPish) conflict with others. The ever increasing imbalance must mean that either New Players get more options and less grind or you will see less and less people sign up, because they realize they can never catch up - by mechanic and the possibitlity of others to dominate through being in game for many years.
I, of course, will disagree with this statement. You can find the original idea - and the following debate - in the link below. I see a need and place for a dedicated fuel hauler; I do not see a need for a teeny-tiny ship hauler… Unless you want to talk towing of ships… then I’m down with that.
I had crap scattered all throughout Gadget’s first home. That added to the lion’s share of the time. I don’t remember what exactly I moved, but I do remember two things. Two of the ships shuttled were a Noctis and a Procurer, and I was moving stuff while playing in D&D campaign at a friends house (it’s how I remember how long it took ).
/shrug
If a pilot is selling stuff… they should likely repackage it… or melt it and sell the minerals if they want.
Those are two options of the whole. If you WANT to keep a certian ship (rigs, killmarks, nostalgia) then there are ways to accomplish this. But if you just want the ship’s use, it might be easier - or more economical - to get another one “over there”… like in real life. Wedding yourself to a particular ship will hurt worse when it finally does disappear, but also like IRL, there are way to accomplish what you want if you’re willing to pay the price - hence all the options included. EvE is about tough choices, after all.
Gadget ground (grinded??) because I decided Gadget will grind. Gadget has an artificial limitation placed on her that made the game interesting for me again - she could only use items that she built or looted herself, with a few exceptions like BPO’s. Even years later… she mostly sticks to that rule. I fully understand that was my choice, and I don’t expect many players to place such a geas on their toons.
Players can, of course, substitute ISK for time. If you sell your stuff at a decent enough price, then you should have enough to re-buy, taking into consideration different economies, of course.
Okay read it. Not against it, but I think your reasoning for why this could be anything for new players lacks a realistic view on things. You say yourself, that this would be good for Alts and it’s exactly the only thing that it would be used for. I mean the “re-fueling new guy” seems pretty far fetched. But okay, why not. Let’s do this too.
How many repackaged Cruisers can you fit in a decently fast T1 hauler?
You do know that the market situation is kind of bad right now, do you? There are areas in Highsec were you can’t buy anything. You basically need to go to a trade-hub, if you are a new player and don’t want to shuttle each ship.
That’s not really a con though. I’m sure you’re right about that, but if it happens, people will learn something. At the same time I’m pretty sure many new players don’t enter this game with ISK-efficient min-maxing in their heads, but look for meaning and progress. Their self-earned ships might just be as important to them at the time as later in game will be their wallet, contact-list and killboards.
Hm, I like that. What are you doing with the occasional ISK you might get from accidentally killing an NPC? I think my proposal doesn’t take anyones option to grind away, nor does it completely get rid of the necessity to grind. Moving 20 ships would still be hard, but it saves a couple of hours which players could use for doing something else in game.
If they can’t afford that much, they also can’t afford this proposed ship.
Your own arguments say that this proposed ship will be useless for the niche that you are attempting to argue for here.
Think of it as if it were a tow-truck. If I’m not mistaken, apart from armor plates, MWD, AB and some rig there is no module and no cargo that gives any kind of mass addition. Now think of SMB as a “bay” or tow-truck - the Volume that can be docked on there could be much greater in size than inside any chamber we call cargohold.
The Volume of build materials for an Miasmos is smaller than that of an Wreathe and still it can fit much more cargo than the latter. Also unpackaged sizes of ships and maximum cargo seem to have no real correlation. The thing here - I admit - is of course that your argument will be that any useful SMB must be larger than the existing specialized holds for other things. That’s why I say: think outside of the box, you don’t need to imagine holds as if they were a box for sorting stuff. Otherwise the entire mass question would come into play again. If need be, think of them - for T1 SMB Industrial - either as tow truck or as non-destructive compression chambers, which borrow the magic from 0 mass cargoholds.
So, it doesn’t need to be expensive, I’d say around the price of an Iteron Mark V would be reasonable.
The bowhead has a maximum of around 2 Million m3 SMB, which is 6.66 times more than what I propose as the max. for a T1 SMB Industrial. Also looking at Zkill and the market, they seem to be rarely used. My best guess is that the Bowhead is a ship that would mostly be useful to newer players, but for them it’s uneconomic. That’s why the need for a dedicated T1 SMB Industrial.
P.S. If you need comparison, go for insects. Ants and bugs and the like. They’re smaller and lighter than what they can carry.
That doesn’t make any sense. A T1 hauler is about 1.3 mill. To just ship from, say, Hek to Rens costs ten times that amount, and you’d have to wait a day. That sucks.
I still see posts suggesting that this ship would step on the toes of others, or have to be expensive. What ships would it overlap with? The bowhead - a huge tanky beast for moving posh battleships? Why would it have to be expensive - I’d say 3-5 mill should do it.
As for a fueling ship, if you’re fuelling then you have infrastructure and cash. Use a Nomad (I do).
I need to hear the specific argument as to how this ship could be abused, or why it would have to be expensive, or what ship(s) roles it would usurp.
).