The watchlist aka “stalkerlist” did not build EvE.
If it was such a great idea then why has no other game in history used it?
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Because no other game is like EVE.
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Some have. They discovered it was bad in pvp games for the most part. Or people learnt exploits to get around it.
I’ve played WoW and pretty much every MMO out there. And to a high level, not just dipped in and out. I’m sorry, the level of skill involved is nowhere near EVE. Getting to that 1% that raids is not difficult if thats what you want. Getting to a high level of competency in EVE is not as easy. Even being an F1 monkey is more challenging that most WoW raids to be honest.
The Meme is about 10 years old, from when LOTRO was released and WoW was at it’s peak. Yes LOTRO is still around, but only in the same way that Star Trek Online is still around. They exist through a free-to-play model that is designed to be as friendly as possible. They’ve got dated graphics and very dated gameplay. EVE and WoW (which I said was still around) are the only ones that have developed properly with time.
Oh, and Pirates of the Burning Sea (POTBS) was an MMO released around the same time as LOTRO. Pretty damn good with an interesting combat system and unique economy, but didn’t take off.
The meme was as true then as it is now. Being successful in EVE takes a lot of effort, far more than any other MMO I’ve played.
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I know you’re trolling, but if you believe you have a different opinion then why don’t you tell us how easy it is? Is ganking as easy as mining an asteroid? Is it as easy as shooting an NPC?
Maybe you can tell us the secret of how to stay above 0.0 sec status, keep to making ISKs while also ganking. Maybe we’re missing something only you know!
Seeing as you said it was hard, perhaps you should detail what is hard about it first. Then we shall waltz this merry dance.
No. See, you trolled my comment so now I like to see you tell us how easy ganking is.
We’re all waiting …
You can wait then, if you throw in such an inane statement then defend it when people laugh at it.
I put that in at the end of an on topic post. You started talking about ganking in a war dec thread, you are massively off topic and therefore you are trolling. Go and open up another thread and explain why ganking is difficult. But stop with the off topic trolling here, got it?
And you can blather on about it all you want, but I am not engaging with you in this thread about your troll comments on ganking being easy and your ignorance about it.
Lets see some of your trolling quotes:
All your digs since jumping in, just so you know 
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Then stop with the trolling.
No. I didn’t start with the talk on ganking. I’m here to give people the right perspective so they can stop talking about ganking and focus on the topic.
To have a good discussion do people need to level. Mining is easy, shooting an NPC a bit less, but ganking, and more so organized ganking, is more difficult. Then how difficult is it to avoid a war?
This is what people need to be thinking about. Because if they don’t start dealing with their difficulties and put them into comparison will a discussion such as this one here always be a drama filled with fear and worry, and the occasional trolling, if not personal attacks and a lock.
So far has this been a rather decent discussion, even when one doesn’t agree with everyone. What it doesn’t need is you trolling it.
Just to piggyback on the end of this, avoiding a wardec is much, much easier than avoiding a gank. A determined gank squad can take anything down.
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Yes. This is also why I’m for social corps or some form of immunity. When the solution is as simple as it is to avoid a war then there can only be little harm in this. I don’t believe it needs it, but because it’s of little harm and people feel they need it is it a good idea to implement it.
That this can bring more players should then not be seen as a blessing. Rather does it need to be taken as just a consequence and one which may lead to problems, such as increased TiDi. We all then want a 64-bit client and better graphics, and CCP has a 64-bit client in the works already. When then fights require more graphics power and we get more players into fights will this begin to lock others out due to their lower specs. We need to think about these issues instead of glorifying every new player as a savoir of EVE.
Keep editing your comment and add insults to it. I already called it.
Social corps are all well and good and I support the idea. My only concern is that there has to be a downside for it - no setting your own tax rate for example. Not setting the tax rate prohibitively high, just the standard NPC. This way players can still have the benefits of being in a social group, just not the benefits that come with the risk of losing everything. Maybe some kind of alpha-type restriction on industry/trade skills would work and the inability to put down structures.
My worry is that it would mess up the economy if industrialists could avoid wars completely.
The fact that one cannot have a structure is already quite a cost factor. While a structure costs ISKs and can be blown up can one also farm easily taxes and fees from other players with it, not to mention the benefits of better reprocessing and manufacturing. Those who choose to take down their one or two structures to gain immunity will lose these benefits.
So you don’t need to worry too much about it. Those industrialists who do have their own structures will have plenty of gains and advantages over those who wish to be immune. And on the market does it only need a price difference of 0.01 ISK to suppress the competition for good.
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Ty for trying to create a discussion about this. CCP is doing their usual poor communication of why change is needed, and what problem they are trying to solve. Leaving the usual trolls ample fodder to argue the semantics of any solution. It’s incredibly tiresome to read their drivel.
Reading the multiple threads and both the CSM comments and listening to the EvE Vegas presentations, it appears that wardecs are having an significant impact of ‘newer’ players. ‘Newer’ players, meaning not ‘brand new’ players, but players that haven’t had time to establish an economic base to work from. Most long term players I know have some characters that earn iskies to support their PvP characters. By ‘newer’ players, CCP appears to be referring to players that haven’t set up this base yet.
While I agree that the changes to the watchlist were a significant change to this issue, I believe they might have only been part of the problem. Highsec demographics have changed in the last 5 to 6 years. Where before you had senior players flying around highsec in significant numbers (senior as 2003 to 2005 players, many of whom lived in nullsec and decided that politics out their wasn’t for them), today you have few if any. Seeing characters prior to 2010 is pretty rare. One of my characters got wardec’d within 2 weeks of joining his first corp. It was the senior players that set up safe systems (we had times for players to log in when the gates would be guarded), we had times where fleets would form up and go hunting. Meanwhile, the senior players build replacement t1 ships and modules, the ensure the newer players wouldn’t be wiped out (insurance went to corp). It was a fairly well thought out system, that enabled the newer players to prosper and grow in times of war. Nobody left corp, because the corp was prepared.
After the changes during rubicon, many of those senior players either left highsec or the game (most the latter), I believe this same scenario played out in many similar corps. Fast forward to today, corps in highsec are often smaller that those of 2006. Lead by players without significant nullsec/lowsec experience. Now their wardec’d by corps much larger than them, where the tactics and or planning from 2006 simply won’t work. With K/D ratios of over 100 to 1, obviously fighting in these wars is highly unsuccessful - so the word goes out to stay docked up and deny kills. ‘Newer’ players that can’t play the game, have no real chance to get hooked on the game and are apparently leaving in significant numbers.
So I believe the changes to watchlist combined with changes in highsec demographics to turn what used to be a minor inconvenience into a significant issue. Anyone suggesting changes that don’t address this issue, are missing the point. We need to give ‘newer’ players time to get hooked on EvE. Telling them to stay in NPC corps, means denying a significant number of experiences in EvE only accessible to groups. While CCP could (and should) undo the changes to the watchlist, that alone won’t fix the whole of the problem. We can’t undo all the changes over the last 5 to 6 years, or null would collapse (imagine trying to finance those large fleets with only belt ratting……). When a 200+ man corp wardec’s a 20 man corp, suggesting any type of ‘fighting strategy’ to them will not be successful, and if they haven’t established the necessary economic support, any fighting they do, will quickly exhaust their resources. From CCP’s and the CSM’s statements, this ‘fact’ is having a ‘significant impact’ (their words) on new player recruitment and retention. Which means it is having a significant impact on the overall health of the game. This is the problem that must be solved, we need to give ‘newer’ players time to get hooked on EvE if we want EvE to grow again. CCP’s solution is rather draconian, but will allow this to happen to an extent, I hope it isn’t their ‘final’ solution, but simply the first part.
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Nice analogy, but it misses one point.
‘Smoking’ is not the selling point of that restaurant, food is.
Now compare that to Eve, where a ruthless player run universe is the main selling point.
But code seek out any technique that’s likely to cause ‘tears’ or any griefing technique that’s fairly straightforward,
The idea that picking defenseless targets and then timing against damage-per-second to beat any police response isn’t the hardest of options, especially as the goal is to upset as many people as physically possible.
Thinking of it, the loss of veteran players tired of null who refuged in high could be a serious matter. Flying under the wing of a knowledgeable veteran helps a lot to learn the tools of the trade in highsec, specially for those players who don’t speak English well. And without a healthy highsec population the game goes to the exact place it’s going now after Highsec lost 40% of its population -most of them the older ones. I wonder when (not if, but WHEN) EVE-U will have lost enough veterans to stop being functional. Because for the last 5 years, there hasn’t been any reason to stay in highsec, and rather there’s been a drive to go nullsec or GTFO… a tricky situation for those who refuged in high and took rookies under their wings.
Sometimes even battle hardened veterans just wanted to have starry eyed noob chasing their Golem in a borrowed destroyer, shooting at NPC frigates and looting wrecks on the move. It made a difference for me to spend some weeks with such a mentor.
But now that kind of people are gone from EVE, and those who became highsec veterans and could had considered taking some starry eyed noob under our wing… well, CCP did an awesome job to not give a f of us, our wishes and our needs. We eventually left highsec, but not to go null as the Rubicon plan intended. My, our, way out was out of EVE and nobody replaced us as the numbers show.
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I believe this was a significant factor in what has happened in the last 5 to 6 years and it comes from direct observation of many of my long time friends who have left EvE forever. My buddylist is full of 2003 to 2005 players who are gone forever…