The Case For Strat Cruisers in Abyss

(Xebov) #21

Thats true.

(Xebov) #22

This comes into play in all areas related to PvE. Whenever you pick a turret ship you end up with limited damage types. So you either get slowed down in some areas, which becomes unacceptable in abbys, or you have several specialized ships which becomes expansive.

To be honest i would think about unifying the resistances on NPCs so all damage types become equally effective. This would solve other areas as well to some degree.

(Fluffy Moe) #23

Not really. Outside the Abyss, kinda, it holds true for lasers and hybrids. Inside the Abyss mobs are more vulnreable to kinetic and thermal, this was done particularly so that Caldari ships would not be at disadvantage due to their kinetic bonusses and hybrid turrets would remain effective. Dmg type wise I think lasers are worst off, except in electrical they get a huge boost. ACs and Arties do not have the problem as they have all damage type ammo available to them, same as missiles and drones.

I’m currently Vedmak experimenting, been doing L4s, anoms and escalations on it, so I run into a lot of this, but its not bad. I can still handle the content just fine, just slower on the big targets. the small and medium size targets still die in roughly same amount of shots despite its lower “per shot” damage so there is no issue.

(Bent Barrel) #24

Well … that may be, but the frigates in PVE are only usually represented by the Astero and that’s it …

(Xebov) #25

So the situation is different but only because they altered some values. Overall you end up with the same issue you have outside. Missiles are king because you can make a “one size fits all” fitting that just needs different ammo. Drones have the same benefit, but since you cant swap them inside the Abbys large bays are king. So you end up with the Gila. Hybrids are a bit better but still only deal partial good damage and Projectiles require different ranges to deal halfway optimal damage. So you are in the same boat like outside, you just do slightly better.

Sounds interesting. I think the precursor weapons work somewhat well ebcause you deal 2 damage types that go well with most NPCs.

Given the designs of most ships i dont think that this is every going to change.

(Bent Barrel) #26

yeah, the Astero needs some nerfing for sure :slight_smile:

(Prime Estates) #27

Please leave my Astero alone.

(Fluffy Moe) #28

With regards to drones. Hammerheads and Vespas are default on the Gila, the other ones suck actually in all instances even when not in thermal or kinetic environment. So for any ship using heavies this will translate to Ogres on battleship targets. No need to swap them at all.

With regards to missiles. Kinetic is good all way around but not the best. On battleship targets in particular thermal seems best. And you can function perfectly with just thermal damage in all filament types without any issues. Thermal / kinetic combo is best.

Exception to this is lasers in Electrical instances, they do a ton of extra damage.

Hybrid turrets IMHO are crap for Abyss. I tried multiple hybrid turret ships and fits since I am originally Gallente and partial to them. They have huge problems. They use too much cap, the range on blasters is too horrible and their tracking sucks. Railguns are even worse due to their sub-par DPS and tracking.

IMHO I would really like to see some specific hybrid turret bonusses within the Abyss instances so they become viable. Maybe at least some weather effects so they are good at least for one specific filament type.

(Xebov) #29

I was talking with generel PvE in mind. Adding something to make specific systems worth it to Abbys is a nice thing, but i would like to see it solved for PvE in general.

(Fluffy Moe) #30

In general, I think 1st and foremost blasters and lasers need to be looked at. They have too many drawbacks on them. To give you an example, for me the best PvE turrets are ACs. Why ? Because I have least problems hitting my targets with them, they don’t use cap and all damage types are available.

“But ACs have the worst tracking in the game so how can you miss with them vs the otehr turrets with better tracking ?” Its because optimal and falloff range.

So in order to actually have a smaller miss ratio they would need better optimal / falloff ranges, use less cap and in case of long range turrets such as railguns, use less PG. Unfortunately, I am not sure that is viable because it might make them too OP and unbalanced in PvP. rails can be buffed straight out, their DPS, tracking, PG use, is down right horrible, they need a buff for PvP as well because how bad they are, but the otehr turrets, not so much.

Lasers should get some more crystals that can perhaps do other damage types.

The otehr thing is their PG and cap use. The way it works out is that there is too little fitting room for prop or tank, this problem does not exist with missiles or arties. Well, on arties PG use is very high, but because they don’t use cap, you can now have at least a decent tank, not good, but decent, on the otehr ones you can’t you’re just left with crap.

Other thing is, a lot of the ship hulls that are bonused for short range turrets or have them in mind, are too slow. Some are fast enough, but only some, most are too slow to get into and keep at range in optimal of their guns. So velocity and ship agility come into play, these would have to be looked at each individually and adjusted.

This problem becomes multiplied unless its a Min or Caldari ship. Gallente and Amarr have a lot of too slow ships. Gallente has drones that make up for it a bit, but Amarr is kinda screwed. And you can’t use Astro rigs on armor ships cause they lower your tank too much.

(Xebov) #31

I use missiles for the same reason. I like my Amarr ships, but i have to accept that they are useless in most parts of the universe and running missions with them is just a pain. I would like more options, but i always end up in the missile department because tehy are easier to use and more effective than any turret ships ic an currently fly.

(Ildrara) #32

Take another look.
You will find that is nowhere near true.
Blasters have the best tracking followed very closely by ACs and trailing FAR behind is Pulse lasers.

(Fluffy Moe) #33

I misspoke. What I meant by that quote is that whenever I bring up the topic this is the argument I get from them. I should have clarified that.

And I do stand by what I said about blasters. Despite their best tracking they have the highest ration of missed shots, low damage shots, etc. due to their super low range.

(Ildrara) #34

Anecdotal subjective evidence is not evidence.
I have ran a Deimos Blaster fit in the Abyss in T5s since it came out on the test server.
I still have not lost one. So that means everything you have bad to say about blasters/acs means nothing. Because I only use a Blaster Deimos/AC Vagabond.

Maybe it is you that isn’t that great and not the weapons.

(Anderson Geten) #35

I agree that people who use to absolute arguments tend to have a very biased point of view.
With many ships orbiting close, the blaster fits seem to be a good choice.

However, the projection povided by missiles offer more flexibility and the possibility to remain out of ewar range.
Sure they actually are worse on application (people who think otherwise just don’t know how to pilot to make your guns apply - because it’s easy enough to make them apply 100% especially for medium size), but the trade off is that you need less tank and are less likely to be “caught” by web+mwd foes.

(Fluffy Moe) #36

If people had so much success running AC vagabonds and Blaster Deimos, especially just T2 fits, then the conversations recorded in the minutes would not be so. There would be no such conversations. Yet there are. I understand you may be an extrordinary player and the rest of us aren’t so be it. I’m an average or just slightly above person when it comes down to it.

I do understand that “fun” is subjective and varies for many people. However, I will say there are a whole lot that I am in agreement with. I don’t know the proportions, but I bet its a lot, since I am pretty much inline with the meta.

So its far from “anecdotal”. It is actually backed up by data discussed by the devs, you just have to look for it.

I don’t like having to manage overheating to idiotic proportions for countless hours which is what is required to do what I do, farm building mats to build my Trig stuff for my own use as well as markets. Can I do it ? Sure. Have I done it ? Sure. But its a drastic difference between stressful and actually fun gameplay. I tried to explain that before multitudes of times to you.

Next, there is a meta. The meta is not anecdotal or anything, it was developed by players better then me, and multitude of players. When the Abyss hit the test server my contribution to the meta was just providing some numbers and combat logs for the other guys. That’s it.

And if you are so super duper pooper great and were there as well then why didn’t you post the fits and vids and the logs back then ? perhaps we’d all be flying vagabonds and blaster deimos instead of gilas now. I’m thinking the lack of your invaluable experience from back at that time is amounting to you spewing ■■■■■■■■.

If you wanted it to be different you should have done something about it when the time was rigtht for it, but you didn’t.

Furthermore, you are quoting my partial sentences and taking things completely out of context. The conversation shifted towards general PvE and you’re still stuck in your whatever dedicated content tunnelvision. if you are going to make replies at minimum bother to read the posts and grasp what is being written.

If you want to make a difference then make some videos, especially ones with the difficult and not the easy spawns, flying what you claim, write up a nice guide and post it for people to use. And they will. Some will have questions, alter fits a bit or whatever. But that, would make a much better use of your time then trying to misquote a single guy on the forums for whatever reason and without even following the entire thread of the whole conversation.

(Anderson Geten) #37

You answer your own question.
People who spent much time finding optimal fits, may not be interested in putting that time to trash just to help other people who don’t want to spend that time.

(Ildrara) #38

Are you talking about the same Devs that couldn’t survive with a Gila in a T3 site? They didn’t even know how to fit the damned thing.

Me either. So I built a fit that didn’t require overheating. You sure are jumping to a lot of conclusions just to be constantly wrong.

People would survive more often in the abyss if they made a fit work for them rather than begging on reddit/eve forums/eve event chat for them. Most convos started in event chat is just some dumb person begging for a fit that doesn’t work after losing a fit that didn’t work. It seems you are in that category.

You sound pretty salty…I share my fits and videos in game in the event channel and the abyss channel.
It isn’t my fault people would rather be like you and nay say instead of find something that works.

That spawn combo doesn’t exist proving you to be a liar.
My fit would easily complete such a lousy comp even if it did exist because I know the importance of cap and a small sig.

That link has my fit posted which I guess you forgot about when you claimed I don’t post fits. Stop lying and actually do some Abyssal sites and maybe you will learn something.

(Fluffy Moe) #39

I do not know if these are or are not the same people as I have never seen / heard of what you are mentioning. So maybe. But even if they can not do the content, they do have access to the data.

On the side note, they should not design content they themselves are incapable of completing since that also means they are unable to test it and from work perspective it is a flat out bad idea to release untested content.

LOL, am gonna repeat myself for the Nth time. I did try many things. And I have found stuff that works, mine just happens to coincide with the meta, some personal adjustments here and there, not yours.

That is a very false accusation, as there are quite a few of us that have come across it on multiple occasions. Some post here, some on reddit, some on discord.

And you’re the fking liar and you’re fking ignorant for not taking it into account. Or maybe you’re just too stupid to see what is in front of you on your overview since many of us experienced it.

There are plenty of videos of full neut spawns of various comps available. All you have to do is use basic google, but hey, if you’re stupid enough and in enough denial then maybe you’ll deny those too.

(Ildrara) #40

I never denied that moron.
I said Leshaks and Vedmaks never spawn in the same room. You said they do. You also didn’t backtrack on your retardation about how I don’t post fits.

tl:dr Fluffy Moe never actually entered the Abyss and just wants Strat cruisers to be able to enter because he is scared of using a regular cruiser.