The Completion of the Reclaiming

[Samira_Kernher]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The danger I see in recent Capsuleer armchair theologies, especially those coming from Matari branches of the Rite, is that they have fixated on one book out of thousands of books of recorded and verified divine revelation. This reduction represents a failure of faith, an act of hubris, and a reduction of both Amarr and God.

Hubris? We’ve submitted to God and Amarr, carried out our obligations and suffered hardships in His Will. Our sins are lashed and controlled, and our whole being is devoted to God’s service. Beaten down into nothing and then raised up again as the faithful. We have had to spend our entire lives proving our worthiness, while those above us think themselves already proven.

The Beast lives in all levels of humanity, and the Deceiver whispers temptations in the ears of both the lowliest slave and the highest lord. The Reclaiming is the Destiny of Faith because the spread of darkness and evil is so prevalent in all of creation, even the heart of the Empire. When it is turned only outwards, evil inside is allowed to fester. If evil inside is allowed to fester, the Reclaiming cannot be achieved, because the seed is black and sick. Thus it can only be seen that we must Reclaim inside and outside. Control those inside, defeat those outside.

It isn’t hubris, but its absence. It is recognition that we are base, flawed, sinful creatures. Only after we Reclaim our own spirits can we hope to Reclaim others.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The faithful capsuleers should spend much less time trying to scrutinize the mind and plan of God using scraps of scripture, and more time listening to the marching orders given by the Theology Council and the Emperor. To serve, unshakeably, is to reach greatness, for only in God can we thrive and grow.

I serve God unshakably, for it is only in Him we can thrive and grow.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

If you are contesting my statement that divine policy commands change over time, I have already referenced the issues of the Moral Reforms repeatedly, which provide the most developed example of large scale divine policy repeal. On a more minor note, there is also the recent addition of scripture concerning the souls of Capsuleers.

How many of those are revelations, and how many are insertions by the corrupt and false to further their personal ambitions? We went a hundred years under a blooder government while Heideran slept. Any Scripture instituted in this time can only be doubted, and if any Scripture can be doubted then all of it can. This is the danger of mutable Scripture. When the gates to the castle are open, it is evil that creeps in.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

Damn girl.

[Deitra_Vess]

@Samira_Kernher

We have had to spend our entire lives proving our worthiness, while those above us think themselves already proven.

You see no issue with that notion? As much as I disagree with your beliefs one thing I feel I can safely say seems to embody your faith. You’ve seemingly proven your faith but your descendants acted in a way I don’t believe you would agree, yet you are the bottom rung? With all you’ve suffered it doesn’t seem like your faith is worth the trouble…

[Samira_Kernher]

I do see issues. But the integrity of my faith does not hinge on the actions of others.

[Isha_Vuld]

The more I re-read these lines of scripture, the more I feel that the Amarr faith is truly a faith of evil and that God is a devil, if anything. They seem filled with condemnations and offer very little mercy indeed, with the vast majority of scriptures that do concern heathens like myself effectively reading “Do as I say, or else”. And just as the cherry on the cake, even if you do “do as I say”, there is no guarantee you will ever be treated kindly. Is that not what we consider an evil attitude?

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.

Wow.

Despite all of this, I do feel I understand Lok’ri’s point. If the Imperial Scriptures never changed over time, then the Empire would never have made it off it’s home planet. It has grown so much that it would have had to adapt it’s religion to make sense of the modern universe, and it has. Scriptures are, indeed, added and modified at times.

And since the Amarr are god’s appointed servants and shall “rule the worlds of the Heavens”, the reclaiming would be for God, but the worlds reclaimed would be ruled by the Amarr. Am I interpreting this correctly?

In other words, this is still pedantry.

And in that context, it does seem as though internal affairs do not quite fall under the reclaiming, unless the people in the Empire are outright not living in accordance with God’s will, in which case they would need reclaiming. Otherwise, a rot on the inside would fall under another institution and scripture, would it not?

[Stitcher]

One has to be careful with God. If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s that nobody knows quite what it means. Us unbelievers tend to think the faithful imagine a wizard of sorts. A Big Beard In Heaven, who watches and judges us in a very human way.

The thinking faithful often reject that description. But then they use the word God to refer to something else and all the Scripture about God talking to folks starts to become a whole lot more fuzzy and a whole lot less intelligible until one begins to suspect that there’s an elaborate epistemological sleight-of-hand going on.

[Deitra_Vess]

Honestly I don’t think this is something I’ll ever understand. It just seems wrong to me, matter of perspective I guess?

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

Despite the judgemental hostility, Isha seems to have followed my point. Internal control is among the many other missions outlined for the Amarr. It is vitally important, but something different than the Reclaiming. And, like the Reclaiming, those missions are subordinate to the fundamental principle that all Amarr must serve God.

We certainly have internal corruption problems since Karsoth. One clear place I disagree with Samira, however, is that I am old enough to remember Heideran’s reforms in their heyday, and see Karsoth as more of an aberration and counter-reaction than a norm. The other clear place I differ is that I have not fallen into the trap of independent inquiry. I do not believe that I am capable of individually telling who in the Amarr structure might have been subverted. Unless there is clear and incontrovertible evidence that a right authority over me has been corrupted, it is still my duty to serve.

I would also say that there is a strong argument that the current systemic troubles exist because Amarr fixated on the mission of Reclaiming and ignored its missions to keep the internal threats in order. We were so busy clearing new land for cultivation that we failed to protect the crops we already had planted. Most of the internal problems we are dealing with now seem to descend from that last period of out of control Reclaiming.

Now, to go back to an old point, Amarr Imperial policy for four emperors now is consistently the doctrine of Pax Amarr. Heideran, Doriam, Jamyl, and Catiz all have pursued policy prioritizing the control of internal enemies over expansion of the space that falls directly under Amarr rule. This has been accompanied by dramatic internal reforms, especially in the middle of Heideran’s reign.

If we recieved support in the effort to remove the internal scum, rather than implacable hostility, you might be pleasantly surprised at the direction in which Amarr develops.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

If we recieved support in the effort to remove the internal scum

I am reasonably sure that’d be an act of genocide. This is generally frowned upon. There is no slaveholder that isn’t ‘scum’. There isn’t a slave trader that isn’t ‘scum’. There is no society wherein such things are practiced that isn’t composed almost entirely of ‘scum’. I think you can see fairly clearly here that not only will our definitions of scum vary greatly, but even if we only played by your definition, all that would be achieved is further strengthening the Empire that is literally an existential threat to all other human societies.

This isn’t a likely scenario, you know. Unfuck that whole existential threat bit first, and then I think we’d all gladly talk options.

[Arrendis]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

There is plenty in scripture about controlling the enemies within, including your own personal demons. It’s just consistently not in material that comes under the heading of Reclaiming. It tends to be in Missions, one of the Prophets, or the codes of condut and laws. The Book of Reclaiming is pretty exclusively about conquering the worlds of the heavens. And those books that do focus on internal affairs do not use the word to describe internal struggle.

And which of them says that

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The Reclaiming is the mission of bringing everything under Amarr control. It does not cover the control of the enemies within

as you claim? There is, after all, a difference between ‘these books use a different word’ and ‘these books say this is not covered by that’. So, since you claim the Reclaiming is specifically not this thing, I’d like you to provide the citations to demonstrate that controlling the enemies within is specifically outside of the scope of, for example, “all under Heaven serve” the God of Amarr.

You specifically claim there are Scriptures to support your position. I’d like you to cite them.

As well, I’d like you to clarify what you mean when you say “Amarr”, since you’ve questioned what I mean, but insist “the Reclaiming” is about bringing things under the control of “Amarr”, but set it limits that make it clear that you do not believe the Reclaiming is intended to bring everything under the control of your God.

[Isha_Vuld]

I am getting too curious for my own good, but here we go.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

One clear place I disagree with Samira, however, is that I am old enough to remember Heideran’s reforms in their heyday, and see Karsoth as more of an aberration and counter-reaction than a norm. The other clear place I differ is that I have not fallen into the trap of independent inquiry. I do not believe that I am capable of individually telling who in the Amarr structure might have been subverted.

I can agree with you on this. Trust in a higher power is vital to any kind of service to a higher power, be it in matters of faith or matters of an empire. “Know your place” is something I was taught early and it is one of the few lessons I still try to adhere by. Capsuleers do have a tendency to think they know all, sometimes better then even their faction leaders.

But if you cannot trust those above you, those who write the scripture, right up to your Empress and the Theology Council, then how can you really serve a higher power? If you have no faith in your own system, then it’s going to be difficult to serve that system.

Of course, this is where I will encourage anybody feeling this way to find a better system to serve, perhaps one that does not try to disguise acts of evil as “God’s will”.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

I would also say that there is a strong argument that the current systemic troubles exist because Amarr fixated on the mission of Reclaiming and ignored its missions to keep the internal threats in order.

Again, no argument here. The Empire roared, and the rest of the galaxy roared back loudly enough to unbalance it. It seems to have become quite a target of late. If I had to point to one of the Empire’s biggest problems, the revolving door of Emperors and Empresses the Empire has gone through in recent decades is probably the biggest cause of internal strife.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

If we recieved support in the effort to remove the internal scum

I probably should not be asking this question, but who precisely do you mean by “internal scum”?

@Deitra_Vess

Honestly I don’t think this is something I’ll ever understand. It just seems wrong to me, matter of perspective I guess?

Indoctrination is a powerful thing. Referring to “know your place” above, it is very possible to raise a person such that the very thought of turning against one’s faith is unthinkable, and since the faith is so structured as to place the Amarr on top, what is one to do but stay the course?
You don’t understand how she can think that way. To this day, I still don’t understand how I ever unlearned it.

Of course, considering it indoctrination is also a matter of perspective, but one I am hoping you will share with me.

[Deitra_Vess]

I don’t really know how to describe it, I guess it just seems against humanity nature to me. Ya know?

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

Isha, the clearest example of internal scum are those involved in the Blood Raider infiltration that occurred under Karsoth and that seem to have been abetted by Khanid policy. After those, I would point to the Sansha and the threat of chip controlled infiltration. Then you have the lunatics of the Equilibrium of Mankind, who make the news less often but are still a major threat.

On a lesser order of magnitude, you have the non-Blood Raider Sani Sabik, who proclaim a vicious corruption of the faith. You also have the petty criminals who have let personal profit override doing their duty to Amarr.

You are correct that the turnover of Emperors since Heideran is disturbing. Doriam’s death was the result of the Blood Raiders, and we have not satisfactorily dealt with the ramifications of their actions. The Drifter assassination of the Empress Jamyl is harder to understand, but they obviously represent another major threat that must be dealt with. This has been one of the most tumultuous periods in the history of the office of Emperor, so an absolute priority is the protection and defense of Catiz in the coming years.

[Isha_Vuld]

@Deitra_Vess

I don’t really know how to describe it, I guess it just seems against humanity nature to me. Ya know?

Never underestimate what a person can be trained to do under enough coercion or instruction. Especially from birth. It is against Human nature. I believe it is considered “noble” to resist those base impulses that tell you the situation you are in is wrong. In time, one can accept the feelings you where taught, and forget ever feeling any other way.

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The Drifter assassination of the Empress Jamyl is harder to understand

They obviously identified her as some kind of threat.
I understand your words, and I do agree it would be a good thing to uproot the “internal scum”, if those are who we are talking about.

As I have no access to the internal workings of the Empire however, and the Imperial Navy is rarely happy to see me in their high-sec systems, I am not sure I can do more then wish you luck.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

The simplest way to help is for those who want to see the Empire change to simply leave us alone.

The Empire can certainly correct the internal threats. It becomes significantly harder to do so when it is spending all of it’s time parrying assaults from outside.

[Isha_Vuld]

Well, the Empire should have been more courteous neighbors, then.

[Arrendis]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

The simplest way to help is for those who want to see the Empire change to simply leave us alone.

Because you have such a history of respecting other cultures when they do, right?

Still waiting for your citations.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

One of our Emperors won the Aidonis. That seems to imply that we have been pretty damn courteous.

[Isha_Vuld]

No, it does not. It implies that that Emperor was less of a cesspit then his predecessor.

Look. I do agree with what you have said, but you must understand that in the end, I am not an Imperial citizen. And though I may have once been of the faithful, I am now what you would consider a “apostate”.

I have my own system to work in, my own people to care for, and sadly, that requires taking full advantage of the Empire’s moment of weakness. The Empire has committed grievous sins in the eyes of our people in the past, and we cannot sit idly by. For the word of God means very little to us.

It’s unfortunate, but far too much damage has been done for me to be a courteous neighbor.

[Arrendis]

@Isha_Vuld

And though I may have once been of the faithful, I am now what you would consider a “heathen”.

Actually, as someone who was once one of the faithful, you’d be “an apostate”.