The Completion of the Reclaiming

So if I entered the succession trials, me, someone you yourself has fought as an enemy, under the Khanid banner for example, you wouldn’t question it? Someone simply paid to kill because I could kill everyone else? I don’t mean to question it, I really don’t but it really doesn’t seem like a people like the Amarr would need to use such a system. It at least in its current form seems like who ever finances the best mercenary wins. It seems rather archaic. Even we don’t do it yet we’re considered a subspecies it seems to some of your kin. Please don’t take that as an insult as its not meant as such.

Personally I would like to see the day where our descendants don’t view military might as the only way. Call me a dreamer. I wish to see the peoples of our Republic together and away from bondage, preferably in a peaceful manner. A warriors job is to fight so others don’t have to, no matter how its achieved at least in my eyes. You actually won’t see me condone a lot of what takes place. But what I see is a necessity for that profession, I see it because there certainly is a branch of your empire’s people who wish harm on ours, just as we have one. The difference between our peoples is those people are given potential power within your ranks, while ours are based out of necessity, out of self preservation against those people who many of us have a blurred line between them. I will say you have answered my question much better than I expected, I really do thank you for that, though I just feel that my reasoning for asking should be shared. If war comes we’ll be ready, If peace can be achieved that’d be preferable. It takes two to tango.

1 Like

Amarr certainly includes those who are under our protection whether they want to be or not. And yes, I understand that this is problematic to your worldview.

On the scriptural issue: I would need to look back at the exact sentence that you are referring to to understand my own particular context, but on scriptural matters I rely upon advisers with much more exhaustive educations than my own on these matters. I would strongly suggest that any Amarr who is trying to make sense of the message of scriptures for themselves independently is flirting with disaster.

The exact scope of the reclaiming is something that is somewhat hotly debated, but the reclaiming as absolute central tenant of faith that overrides other aspects of the faith argument is one I have almost exclusively seen from capsuleers.

Those examples are all anti-colonial revolutions. A subject population rising up and demanding freedom from a dominant population. I don’t think that dynamic can be applied to what would be more of a successor state scenario in which competing claims of legitimacy over the whole are what causes the split.

Less my worldview than some peoples’ life expectancy, really.

Well, not exactly. The Gallente Federation was founded by the people of Gallente Prime and the people of Caldari Prime. It can’t be said to be a colonial revolution if the two factions are the co-founders of the political entity.

Edit for clarity: Keep in mind, my worldview includes the basic premise that all human beings are fundamentally vile, worthless monsters who have half the brains of a month-dead fedo and fewer of the morals. The flip side of this is that people are constantly exceeding my expectations, which gives me a perversely optimistic outlook about things.

2 Likes

… this is going too far. It is hardly an uncommon belief among Amarrian baseliners.

If one of the heirs chose you as a supporter, that would certainly raise eyebrows, but several of the choices this time around raised eyebrows.

There was a question with the recent succession trials if the rite had been compromised, the decision of Khanid to allow Ediety to compete for his champion spot was inexcusable and it would have created grave questions about the legitimacy of the trials if Khanid had won.

If you do not believe in divine guidance, such a trial certainly seems arbitrary. If you do, then it is sensible.

I would contest that you need to examine the difference you draw here, as I saw the republic promote those that would consider the republic itself to be an acceptable causality of war if it took Amarr with it in the aftermath of Shakor’s takeover.

I believe you on this point, Samira. It seems to become more common as one looks to the lower classes of Amarr, which is interesting, and suggests I may need to hire an expert in those branches of the rite.

1 Like

Might I suggest that it also indicates, given the structure of Amarr society on the idea that those in charge are in charge precisely because God has viewed them as more virtuous, the upper echelons of Amarr society are self-entitled to the point that they minimize the importance of ‘reclaiming for God’ because they feel that work’s already done on their end? ie: ‘I’m here where I should be, I don’t need to worry about that any more. Other people can deal with it.’

1 Like

Point taken on the Gallente/Caldari. Though I believe my point stands that it isn’t quite the same scenario as a breakdown of a feudal empire into several factions that all think they have legitimate right to claim that they should rule all, which seems the most likely collapse state for Amarr.

I suppose your right on this one…

You hear the words of people who assume the Gallante will run to our aid at a finger snap to help us rebuild if that war would break out, much like the Caldari with you. I don’t believe either of those two, do you? The Caldari probably wouldn’t have the ability to rebuild an empire at least 3x the size of themselves and the Gallante would simply see a new territory to extort. What I do believe is as @Isha_Vuld said earlier if I’m not mistaken, combat would be more or less guerrilla in nature. A few precision strikes, a lot of lost territory and your people rotting from within, with us regaining ground. Maybe we won’t survive, but dying on your feet is better than living on your knees. I don’t mind dying for my people, few of those you see here do even if we all don’t hold the same exact beliefs on everything. Don’t take our more fluid system, fluid as we are seven different tribes with seven different views united under one Republic, as being as predictable as your own with one cluster view of the situation. We think on our feet, you rely on a library.

1 Like

No, it’s not, but the very fact that it’s a feudal empire… I mean… the root of ‘feudal’ isn’t ‘peaceful coexistence’, you know?

While I won’t say the Amarr aren’t capable of innovation… another thing to consider is that we get similar or superior performance out of technology everyone else considers inferior, and we’re demonstrably less predictable and more adaptive in terms of combat technology. In the current landscape, our ships often appear less focused, with their ability to use either armor or shields, or choose between three different weapons systems (often on the same hull). In the kind of fighting an all-out war between the Empire and Republic would entail, however, that flexibility provides an incredible amount of both versatility and resilience, in addition to its logistical simplification in terms of ‘if we find it, we can kill you with it’.

The things my Clan’s done to alcohol definitely fits under that category.

However, I think it was likely Isha who pointed out that we’re more or less culturally configured for asymmetric warfare.

2 Likes

Well said, and I’ll fix that

1 Like

I do not believe that is it, Arrendis. I expect that it is a long term gradual inflation of the meaning of Reclaiming on the part of well meaning, but probably under-trained, clergy ministering to slaves and freedpeople. The hyper focus on salvific reclaiming is one that seems likely to resonate best with reclaimed populations, and that likely created a feedback loop that kept magnifying the importance of reclaiming as salvation until it became all encompassing. A concept once limited to the initial moment of incorporation into Amarr starts subsuming the Book of Missions and the vast quantity of other material dedicated to the long process of improving ones own soul.

This is not wrong, really, in that context. The sense that the fallen have only partially been reclaimed by conquest makes for a certain amount of theological sense, even if that is not something covered in the book of reclaiming. This then becomes something different and more worrying, now, because some of those raised in that part of the system have become quite rich capsule pilots and are applying that rhetoric in places where it does not belong. The suggestion you have made that those who have no history of having fallen do not think they need to be reclaimed is valid, but that does not mean we believe all who have never fallen to be immune from internal threats.

This is a place where I can give examples off the top of my head. For example, Anoyia’s exhortation:

Chosen, you are first before God.
You are the True and the Faithful.
But in such a state must you hold yourselves high above all.
And constantly prove yourself worthy of Gods Love.
How can such a gift be repaid,
Other than to toil all our days,
In his glorious service,
According to his will,
Serving him always,
Bearing him first in our thoughts,
Always must we strive to show him our worth,
For we are the Chosen, Blessed above all."

or

Missions 5:14: Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure. The gates of paradise will open for you one time only; woe to the soul who dares to knock twice.

Missions 13:21 To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin

And so on.

The exhortation that those with power can damn themselves and that they must constantly be on guard to protect their faith against the tests that come their way is a constant part of the rhetoric that is supposed to be driving the True Amarr. I will not contest the point that many True Amarr do not live up to this, and I will even go farther and say that they do in fact need to be Reclaimed. A Holder who is in breach of divine law and is not enforcing divine law in their holding is, in fact, no longer part of Amarr.

Oh, I don’t think the True Amarr believe all True Amarr to be immune to internal threats. That’d be laughable, and plays into the other thing (so I’ll tie it in there in a minute).

I just think, after the manner of rich, influential people all over the cluster, they have a massive blind spot regarding their own vulnerability to internal threats. ‘Oh, sure, people have to be vigilant, but you know, I’m faithful, I pray. I would never do anything really bad. A few little indulgences here and there is ok, right?’

And just for clarity on the earlier bit about feudalism: (which I admit was pretty flippant): The nature of the Empire’s power structure means that it basically runs on rivalries. Each House is in a constant struggle to one-up the other Houses, to demonstrate their fitness, their primacy, their piety. If they don’t, they run the risk of falling out of favor or being out-maneuvered in some catastrophic way that sees their fortunes (both in terms of fate and lucre) severely impacted.

A long history of that behavior, as well as strong ideological differences about different aspects of the Amarr Rite, means there’s a lot of long-standing tensions there. Some of those tensions doubtless stem from legitimate issues one Heir has with another over some personal failing. Like one thinks another’s actions are incredibly sinful, and the second thinks that’s silly, it’s just a bit of harmless nonsense, and besides, God doesn’t seem to mind…

… or even that that happened ten generations ago, and so one House develops a feeling of ‘those people can’t be trusted. No matter how pious and smiling they are in public, behind closed doors, they’re wicked and depraved. Why, I’ll bet they’re secretly Sani cultists!’

Those tensions don’t get released. They can’t get released. Not really. To show that something one of the others does bothers you, when you know the Throne won’t side with you? Or can’t, because it would upset the balance of power? Or even if you don’t ‘know’ it, you just… can’t be sure they will side with you? That’s showing a weakness. It’s showing a way you can be manipulated. You don’t dare do that in an environment where everyone’s always in competition with everyone else.

It’s asking to find a knife in your back.

And because those tensions don’t get released, when the lid finally comes off… yeah. There’s bad blood there. There’s bad blood all over the floors, in pretty short order.

1 Like

I don’t really disagree with your assessment of how houses would interact with the lid off, but those same impulses and struggles to one up the other houses as well as the size of the network means that you are going to see multiple would be war heroes throw the dice on external military adventures.

The other thing is that the simplest way to buy loyalty in such conflict is to give out land. Military adventurism has the possibility of increasing the total amount of land to be given out, which in turn creates the possibility of swift end of conflict. The war hero who ended a long term external threat would have a good argument for convincing other holders to join their coalition for Emperor. The stratification inherent in Holder subinfeudation also means that things come apart in relatively coherant regional chunks as well, as we saw with the Khanid secession, which limits the immediate bloodshed.

Finally, it’s not just the Holders, you also have to deal with the bureaucratic institutions of Navy and Theology Council and so on. Jockeying for signs of divine favor becomes standard, as does attempts to convince the navy to take a side. You would also have a risk of naval Admirals thinking that the best way to save the situation is their own external military adventures.

It would be a giant, catastrophic, bloody, unmodelable mess. But I am quite certain that it would take a lot more than just Amarr down with it, assuming it even managed to take Amarr down in the end rather than producing a leaner, more militant, state.

1 Like

Why? There’s nobody to impress. There’s nobody to curry favor with… except their enemies, with whom they have scores to settle. You can point to the Theology Council and the Navy, but the Council is full of old men, and old men don’t get to be old men by being stupid. They’ll wait to see which way the wind is blowing before they do anything. As for the Navy… the Navy will fracture right along with everything else. Do you think those officers don’t already have ties to the House in whose territory they’re stationed? Do you think the Holders haven’t been currying favor? And that the Naval officers haven’t been currying it right back?

Again, though, to go outside the Empire, you’re leaving your part of the Empire less defended. As you say, the simplest way to buy loyalty is land. Which land is more attractive? Space in the Fed or the Republic, where CONCORD’s already going to be stepping in to tell you to get back in your damned lane already, and even if you take that space, the natives are going to offer continuous, armed resistance?

Or space in the territory of your rival, who’s off trying to get space in the Fed or Republic? Space where the locals are already perfectly happy with the Amarr way of life, and the lesser nobles probably don’t care more about which House their more powerful liege and patron belongs to than they do about keeping or losing their land, and all of the perks that come with it?

Which House do you think is most willing to turn its back on the others long enough to secure outside territories like that?

1 Like

Ardishapur from their Ammatar bases, would be an obvious first choice.

And Sarum quietly tells Khanid that if they make a move on Ardishapur’s holdings in the Empire proper, the Sarumites and their ginormous House Fleet won’t move on the Kingdom as long as Khanid doesn’t oppose Sarum’s removal of Tash-Murkon and their filthy little merchant claws from the strings of the Amarr purse.

1 Like

Saint Kernher of the Knife.

1 Like

image

You people.

1 Like

Whut d’you mean, “you people”? Huh?

1 Like