The Corax should be buffed

Good evening.

I have been the world weekly #1 pilot on zkill for the Corax several times over the years, recently I have been dabbling in the vessel in preparation for hypothetical rebalancing/redesign of FW that has been discussed by CCP devs on livestream. Prior to the current round of flights, navy destroyers did not exist so the balance of FW pvp was considerably tighter than it is now. The Corax, while thoroughly mediocre, was capable of punching at its weight class in the right conditions. Once upon a time I proposed a fix to the Corax for more cpu and grid as before that change (many years ago now) the Corax was actually unable to fight frigates due to it not having enough grid or cpu to even fill all its slots except when exclusively using compact modules. Now I am proposing some updates to this woe ridden submarine as it is clear that time has left it behind and it is almost unusable again.

What compelled this post? Dying 5 times to the same thrasher pilot despite having 1. a DPS advantage at range, 2. a range advantage, 3. selectable damage type that was shooting in to his hole, 4. positional advantage because I could start the engagement on my terms

If you are flying a ship that is too slow, not enough EHP, not enough DPS AND kinetic locked AND shooting a kinetic hole and not having enough slots spare to actually control the battle, you have a ship that is functionally useless and should be buffed.

Some stats:

The observant will see it is: slowest in class, tied equal worst lock speed, 2nd worst sig radius, highest nominal non-navy shield hp but no resistance bonus so EM hole. It does have a marginally better than average inertia modifier which will never materialise because it is so slow. The relatively high native mass is irrelevant, you can’t slingshot/black hole anyone because you’re too slow.

The types of targets I could kill: unaware or inexperienced players that were slower to react than me, either by scram kiting and sitting in their deep falloff or by orbiting at super close range if I realized they had sniper guns.

The types of targets I couldn’t kill: anything with long range guns regardless of if I was close or orbiting. Anything with drones. Anything with blasters or AC’s with EMP loaded who just fit an AB instead of a mwd.

When you actually get down to it, the Corax has only a 50hp bonus over most of its competitors and has no ability to control the field against a similarly fit opponent that just decides to hit approach and overheat their afterburner. The kinetic lock also affords people the chance to refit when they see you, meaning you might be fighting someone with a 75% resist to kinetic and have no chance of survival. By being kinetic locked you are completely predictable as using other damage types is often worse than just piloting better and overheating with kinetic. The Corax has very low usage rates, with a few hundred thousand kills attributed to it over the 10+ years of the ships existence which is several hundred thousand fewer kills than the Talwar which was introduced in the same time period. So with it justifiably earning the dubious honour of being one of the worst ships in the game: how do you fix it?

First of all I would buff it’s speed to be more in line with other scram kiters. 255m/s means that catalysts, thrashers and navy coercer can still push in on you but they’re going to need a run-up or catch you turning to close the gap properly. As a catalyst has nearly double your dps, he doesn’t need to get that close to kill you. Most of the catalysts I killed were stuck using void at 6km because they didn’t ammo swap. Secondly I would increase the damage bonus to 6% per level for kinetic missiles. This turns in to about 13dps more without damage mods or rigs, 19 dps with t2 calefaction catalyst and 1x BCU II. I would give 3% per level to the other damage types. Do the same rebalance with the Talwar for consistency. Thirdly I would give the ship another 5 cpu, as last round they gave it much more grid than it needed but the ship still can’t competently fit modules without dipping in to expensive implants worth more than the whole fit or compact modules that are half the ships value (compact ballistic controls and medium compact shield extenders should honestly just drop a lot more, so much more that they drop in price to something more reasonable). 5 more CPU lets you use a 1% cpu implant and take Double BCU IIs, which trades EHP for damage at an inefficient ratio. For players who can leverage range control, it means faster kills. For everyone else, they just lose quicker, and maybe even lose fights they might have won otherwise. It becomes a choice that doesn’t require you to spend double your fit value on implants.

The Corax was a class-A example of designing ships with certain features just to make it fit a “theme”. It played on all the stereotypes about Caldari vessels but was a weak ship that everyone hated it when it came out. Then they gave it +50 hull, people still hated it, finally they tweaked it with extra cpu and grid and it became a ship some people wanted to fly. Now in the era of powercrept t1 destroyers with navy and pirate vessels just being explicitly better than them and capable of winning fights they should have lost (like the mamba) the Corax sits on the bottom of the stack, sharing the dirt with the dragoon. A series of small, rational and well reasoned changes to this ship can make it playable and enjoyable again, something less reliant on ignorance and poor opponent choices to get wins.


For anyone that might be curious, the corax only wins vs thrasher fleet issue IF it can stay over 8.8km away for the duration of the entire fight (it can’t because the TFI is like 160m/s faster when webbed). Curiously the catalyst only actually stands to win if it gets under 3.5km/4km with CNAM/void.

Just wondering, does every ship have to be great at 1v1s?

One could say that in an ideal EVE ship balance all destroyers should have an equal chance of winning 1v1s and thus underperforming destroyers like the Corax should receive buffs to reach that goal.

But I am not convinced this should be the goal of ship balance in this game. The game is broader than just 1v1s. Also if you push balance too far in that direction you get a bunch of destroyers with different names and looks but are all functionally the same.

I am no regular Corax or destroyer or even 1v1 pilot, so I have nothing to say about the Corax’ performance in 1v1s.

I’m just sceptical of the goal of this buff.

And the message of “As a regular pilot of ship X I ask for buffs to ship X” is not reducing that scepticism either, on the contrary.

In my idea a perfect EVE ship balance isn’t that all ships are equal in every particular activity, or even just in one (say 1v1 duels), but is that we have a wide variety of different ships that each have uniqueness, strengths and weaknesses.

In that sense I see nothing wrong with it that the Corax underperforms in 1v1s as long as it has purpose in other scenarios in the game.

So here’s my question:

Is the Corax a bad pick for all activities in the game like it apparently is in 1v1s against destroyers?

If yes, maybe then a buff to the Corax could be a good idea.

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Generally the better a ship is at 1v1 the better it is at fleets too. The only interesting feature of the Corax from a fleet perspective is that it gets nearly perfect application with missiles, so with LMLs you could run it as a screening force against frigates provided you have the coordination and numbers to 1-shot things. But the numbers don’t lie. This theory has been tried and missiles lose to guns when it comes to the numbers game. The corax is almost tied with the dragoon for low usage rates but if you check the dragoons lossmails it mostly loses to unwinnable engagements anyway eg fighting kiting cruisers, situations that are auto-losses.

Your comment about all destroyers ending up the same like some kind of convergent evolutionary path is just simply facetious under the current design of the game. Torturing the metaphor by implying that to be balanced they need uniform performance profiles isn’t reasonable or smart from a gameplay perspective. It is obvious that the Corax is not a kiter, it is too slow. It has 4 mid slots because that is the theme of Caldari, they didn’t give it 5 mids 1 low slots because then everyone would take double web scram fits and Corax fits would bleed out to a single gameplay style. It wouldn’t make sense to fly anything other than dual web scram kiters or go back to dual MASB scram web fits that people ran a decade ago.

Being highly experienced with a ship does not diminish a persons critique. If someone like Chessur suggested that the Retribution should lose 5m/s base speed for X reason I would consider the feedback seriously as he proved he was one of the best pilots of that ship.

Youtube searching for the Corax shows people use it for PVE, which isn’t a selling point for saying it is balanced as PVE in this game is extremely easy and designed to lose to the player. In PVP you are rolling the dice on whether or not you have a fair engagement, not going to lose the rock/paper/scissors and that you pilot correctly and push yourself over the winning finish line. It is a competition with someone who is trying to win in battle against you.

That thrasher fleet issue has fitting to spare and was equipped with T2 across the board, the Corax still starves for fittings and needs to drop a 14 mil implant to leverage a second BCU. While you can tell me that the TFI is supposed to be better natively than the Corax because it is a navy ship, why is it that the Navy Cormorant has less than 1/3rd the usage rate of the TFI, and just barely over 1/3rd the usage rate of the navy catalyst? Is it because that ship also suffers from being a fringe, marginally better scram kiter that is way too slow and has too niche bonuses to be a viable ship at the higher level? Yes that’s exactly what it is, the navy corm should not exist it should be a navy corax that has actually useful bonuses and a base speed more appropriate to something that wants to keep things at finger-tip length.

I really like your well-thought approach to the suggestion. Since I lack experience in destroyer 1v1s I won’t even judge the arguments yet. I have just one (maybe naive, but I am curious) question: Why comparing the Corax (T1 basic, 1.4M ISK) to the Thrasher Fleet Issue (T1 navy, 20.5M ISK) and not to the normal Thrasher? For me it sounds logical that a Thrasher Fleet Issue should always dominate a Corax under most conditions.

Thanks in advance.

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It does indeed not diminish your critique to be experienced with the ship you request buffs for.

In fact, people with a lot of experience with the ship are best at knowing it’s strengths and flaws.

It however might also hide an ulterior motive. It is not uncommon to see people ask for buffs to their own preferred playstyle or their own preferred ship on this forum not for the good for the game, but for selfish reasons. I’m not saying your thread is one of those, but I hope you understand that when you say you “fly the ship a lot that you wish to be buffed” this does raise my skepticism.

Also I did not mention it in my previous post, but agree with Syzygium when it comes to the Thrasher Fleet Issue you fought.

Why do you compare the performance of the T1 Corax with Navy/Fleet issue destroyers and not with their T1 versions?

Wouldn’t it be expected for a T1 ship to be at a disadvantage in that matchup?

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i always liked the corax, but i never see it in the field. it’s always coercers, thrashers, catalysts and algoses.

i did have some fun with a sensor dampening fit, and flew it as a kiter against other destroyers.

i don’t recall using a corax much… i think many moons ago, i used to either go from kestrel to caracal, or maybe kestrel to corax for a bit while still training caracal.

The price of an item is determined by the market. LP is exchanged at whatever ratio the trader wishes to exchange it at. You can more or less cop out and say the only actual guaranteed price floor for an item is the taxes and fees paid to NPCs for the manufacture/purchase of said inputs and final product. The thrasher in question super popular and you see a lot of players flying it: to reiterate my earlier point that the Thrasher Fleet has well over 300k kills despite being only a few years old. It is a very potent ship that can be fit almost however you want without needing implants or especially high skills to fly.

Why am I comparing a Corax to a Fleet thrasher? Why not? I beat navy catalysts with it due to good piloting and a little luck, its basically the same question. I could probably beat a navy coercer with my corax as well if he’s slow on the draw and has the wrong ammo loaded initially. My Corax is close to an optimised fit for the hull. It requires almost perfect fitting skills to equip it that way without needing expensive implants. Let’s take a step back and compare a few things here.

These are the fits used in the above chart:

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
[Thrasher Fleet Issue, Thrasher Fleet AC shield] [Thrasher Fleet Issue, Thrasher Fleet AC armor] [Thrasher Fleet Issue, Thrasher Fleet arty Shield] [Thrasher Fleet Issue, Thrasher Fleet arty armor]
Gyrostabilizer II 400mm Steel Plates II Counterbalanced Compact Gyrostabilizer Counterbalanced Compact Gyrostabilizer
Damage Control II Damage Control II IFFA Compact Damage Control Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Counterbalanced Compact Gyrostabilizer 200mm Steel Plates II
1MN Afterburner II 1MN Afterburner II Initiated Compact Warp Disruptor Initiated Compact Warp Disruptor
Medium Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II Warp Scrambler II Medium Shield Extender II Faint Epsilon Scoped Warp Scrambler
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
200mm AutoCannon II 200mm AutoCannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] Small Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator II Small Explosive Armor Reinforcer I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator II
Small EM Shield Reinforcer I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small EM Shield Reinforcer I Small Explosive Armor Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Small Trimark Armor Pump I

You are certainly welcome to take these fits and do what you want with them.

I am going to try 4 different fits with the corax to provide some context, bearing in mind again that the corax is a scram kiter that relies on range to win. If you start the fight beyond 13km as I did in one of those mentioned attempts against that guy then you can possibly win, if you can dps him low enough before he reaches under 8.8km and starts to win by virtue of having a simply better vessel.

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
[Corax, Corax v3a] [Corax, Corax v2] [Corax, Corax v2 dual BCU] [Corax, Corax LML]
Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control I
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II Faint Epsilon Scoped Warp Scrambler Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler Small Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier Initiated Compact Warp Disruptor
Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Peripheral Compact Target Painter
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Rocket Launcher II Light Missile Launcher II
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small EM Shield Reinforcer I Small EM Shield Reinforcer I Small Processor Overclocking Unit II
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Thermal Shield Reinforcer I Small Thermal Shield Reinforcer I Small EM Shield Reinforcer I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Now curiously enough that armor Corax has actually got some competitive EHP to its other variants, the only issue being its lack of dps at a meagre 257 or 303 hot, which is less than the dps of the basic shield Corax when cold. However if you start the engagement far enough away, you will never get caught as the enemy will be slower than you, thus letting you kite and feather your throttle to match his so he can’t catch up or run away and you’d be out-dpsing him. It’s been a long time since I tried an armor Corax but I will give it a go and give you some feedback in the coming days. But just remember even if it is a very successful fit, once people figure it out by fitting 150mm railguns or arty, you’re just dead. It is likely to be an even less successful ship than the basic variant.

I don’t think it is good game design to have ships with only one or two viable fittings. Ignoring for a second how poorly equipped the corax is to even take a full load out on behalf of missiles not having weapon sizes like electron/ion/neutron blasters, I don’t think anything more than just a few points of CPU should be added to it otherwise it could tip the other way.

better question is why you engage one, four times in a row, using the same fit.. nice long paragraphs and charts, seems like you’re trying information overload to obscure a simple truth; you’re fighting a newer, superior ship, dying, and blaming your ship. a few points of cpu won’t change that.

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That.

My point is: The Corax shouldn’t be balanced to fight and succeed over Faction Destroyers.

The Corax as basic T1 Destroyer should be able to fight and beat other basic T1 Destroyers. It shoud lose in general to any Navy Faction Destroyer by quite a margin.

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No. I said it clearly in the original post. I started with every meaningful advantage my ship needs to be successful and lost anyway. The corax is not a great ship, it’s actually very weak. It should be buffed because it does not have the speed, the tank or even the lock speed required to consistently meet the demands of the playstyle. You can check my killboard. The only ship with a very strong chance of killing me is the thrasher fleet issue and some of that is luck, like landing at zero on the target and being burned down, some of that are the structural issues with the ship being so incredibly weak and slow. The more you play the more serious he issues are because binary/trinary decision making is bad and removes nuance from fights that should be winnable.

This is a very reductive reasoning applied to the issue. If fights should be won by investment alone then marauders should never lose to assault frigate gangs and HACs should never lose to t1 cruisers. Yet we see this happen. The sublime genius of having so many different weapon systems and ship sizes means that granulation of outcomes removes the “I win” part of pvp where simply dumping more money on a fit gets you victory every time. As regards my corax fit, it has an incredibly narrow engagement profile and if a target falls outside of that, they either escape, kite me to death or dps burn me down. It requires fights to occur in a precisely controlled band of parameters which are not necessarily inside my control. Killing navy catalysts and even sabres isn’t that hard, but killing a corax isn’t an achievement at all. If you are in a favourable position by virtue of missile mechanics, you just win. If you are in an unfavourable position, you might still win thanks to wrecking shots and other gunship nonsense that flips the table now and then.

This argumentation has two major flaws.

First, a gang - if large enough - can always beat a bigger and more expensive ship because the damage and the sheer amount of usable slots for effect modules simply overwhelms any stats and abilities of a single ship. But we are talking about 1on1 performance here, and indeed Assault Frigates are not able to defeat Marauders, except for very rare cases of niche situations. Generally speaking, an Assault Frigate probably has less than 1% chance to kill a Marauder (both pilots equally skilled, same level of combat experience and using proper fittings).

Second, you are taking in absolutes which is never useful. Of course there are chances for a T1 cruiser to beat a HAC, but they are small. And in most of those cases you see a huge disbalance in skill or fitting quality if that happens. Again, chances are like 90% for the HAC in an engagement.

Same goes for T1 Destroyer (Corax) vs Navy Destroyer. You don’t get very high chances here and thats okay, you are fighting above your weight class. I am pretty sure people have beaten Navy Destroyers in a Corax, it’s just not the norm and it shouldn’t be the goal of balancing.

The Corax could use a buff, however you do not get a buff for one, by comparing a completely different class of ship to one, compare it to the normal Thrasher.

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