Never heard of them.
I wrote an outline history of the Takmahl Empire a while back. Have you read it ?
Maybe, probably? The police? How long have you been a capsuleer? Better yet, what kind of drugs are you taking these days? I think I could use some.
To your original point though, I am curious why you care so much. If your happy little bubble in the Fed is so great, why do you let the opinions of others concern you?
Th’hell’s that got to do with anything? She’s talking about religious groups in the Fed, not egger factions. So, yeah, if there’s a religious group out there among the baseliner Fed population that seeks to actively harm others, that’s a matter for the police.
When d’fuk did we become the arbiters of right and wrong throughout all cultures in the cluster? What kind of drugs is she on? What kind of drugs are you on, Zaz, that you think we’re supposed to be personally managing the lives of trillions of people?
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A Brief History of the Sani Sabik, adapted from my lecture material for the classes I teach at Kaztropolis Imperial University
- The Beginning
The first incarnations of Sani Sabik arose not too long after contact with the Udorians, which presented people with alternative points of view. While initially the Sani Sabik were mostly very orthodox Amarr, adhering to the strict letter of the canon Amarr scriptures, they did have some different interpretations of some of the more obscure scriptures. The major draw was the possibility of social advancement, which was important at the time, as Amarr Island was becoming quite overpopulated, nearing the limits of what was possible with the technology of the time, following thousands of years of peace following the unification of Amarr island and the crushing of Molok the Deceiver.
Eventually, the Sani sabik threatened the position of the mainstream Imperial Church, and a sectarian war was instigated by the Amarr Emperor.
Some Sani sabik escaped from Amarr Island into Udoria and into hiding.
These hidden cults and secret societies persisted for hundreds more years. Some are rumoured to exist even today on Amarr Prime.
Members of these cults and societies are sometimes called “Old Believers”, or members of the “Old Rite”, largely by outside authorities, because few, if any, have been confirmed to exist at all, and their name for themselves is unknown.
- First Wave Space Colonialism
The second great sprouting of Sani Sabik occurred shortly after the Amarr Empire became an interstellar power, with the construction and activation of the Hedion stargate.
Again, one of the major factors behind this, was the opportunity for social advancement, as space travel allowed people to expand faster than Imperial bureaucracy, which meant many Sani Sabik were able to set themselves up as planetary overlords on distant worlds, far from the reach of the Church’s Inquisitors.
Of course, though the Imperial machinery of state was slow to respond, respond it did, and the second Great Sabik War occurred, and once again, a great purging of Sani Sabik took place. This time, more were able to escape retribution, thanks to space travel, and the Sabik scattered in all directions aboard cryo ships.
One such scattering was the group that would become the Takmahl.
Other groups fled elsewhere, and were the founders of Sabik societies on distant worlds, a handful of which were never Reclaimed by the Empire, such as a handful of the inhabited planets of Delve.
These cults, a number of which remain active today, form a substantial segment of the population of Sabik believers of New Eden.
- The Takmahl Empire
The Takmahl settled in Araz constellation which is now in Kador region, and succeeded in creating a society that was mostly functional, though with significant structural problems associated with their particular belief set, and the circumstances of their evacuation from Amarr space.
While they reached great scientific achievements in bioengineering and other fields, they ultimately weakened themselves by infighting, and the final kibosh appears to have been a series of natural disasters.
When the Amarr Navy eventually arrived in the area, they found a handful of settlements, but no functional interstellar or even planetary governmental apparatus.
Many Takmahl artifacts still exist, and occasionally one might encounter cultists who claim to be “Neo-Takmahl” or some such, but they are entirely modern cults who have appropriated the trappings of Takmahl civilisation, and have no direct connection with the Takmahl Empire.
- The Bleak Lands
Another area settled by a number of Sabik groups was the wilderness that is now known as The Bleak Lands. The Sabik civilisations there were characterised by internal strife with sectarian violence being endemic. Many disparate groups were able to assert control over planets and occasionally star systems, but it was only fairly recently that the Blood Raider Covenant rose to prominence and was able to assert control over a sizeable area of space. Born out of extremist violence, the Covenant are one of the most militaristic sects of Sani sabik in the current era, and have set themselves up as the overlord of a majority of Sabik-inhabited worlds.
- Interstellar contact.
Several decades before the Covenant’s rise to power, the Amarr Empire encountered the Gallente Federation, and later the Caldari State.
This inevitably led to a number of Sani Sabik migrating to Gallente space, forming cults with significant Gallente influence, most notably in their adaptation to Gallente culture.
The Federation offers considerably greater social mobility than the Amarr Empire, which lends itself to substantial reinterpretations of the Sani sabik scriptures, such as the meanings of greatness.
In the Federation, one can quite easily become a first-rank celebrity by excelling in any number of fields, whereas in the Empire, social advancement is almost entirely dependent on the wishes of the Emperor.
Thus, Gallente-influenced Sabik often eschew the violent literalist interpretations of Scripture, and instead treat them more as metaphors - sacrificing an opponent on the Altar of God no longer means doing it literally, but instead it is metaphorical - absolutely ruining the reputation of someone is considered equivalent to putting them on an altar.
- Interstellar Intermingling.
With the invention of jump and warp drives, the cluster has become effectively smaller, and it is quite possible to traverse the entire cluster in hours rather than years. This facilitates the intermingling of Sabik beliefs, which results in a number of cults with radically different beliefs, so much so that one would be surprised they have any common origin at all.
Coursework:
- In 2500 words, give your opinion on the significance of the opportunity for social advancement as a major factor influencing the growth of Sani Sabik cults.
- In 2500 words, express an opinion on whether highly militaristic cults limit the possibilities of social advancement due to over-reliance on martial values.
- In 2500 words, arrive at a position on whether the Gallente-based Sani sabik cults are too diverse to ever form a coherent force.
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There are a lot of post I will need to address. I plan to do that when I get the time in the next few days.
However, Valerie, baby, you should know that history is written by the winners, the losers, the bystanders, people with agendas, and then rewritten later to suit yet more agendas. My wife and I could likely not even agree on a single history of the Gallente-Caldari war, and that happened quite recently.
The history you wrote is an agreed upon set of maybe-facts by a specific group of people. It’s also subject to the historical filter of a civilization that happily rewrites and edits history and even current events at will!
The most I will agree to is that there is a Sani Sabik faith. It did arise in the Amarr Empire. The Amarr Empire tried to suppress it. The Takmahl society maybe followed some version of the Sani faith.
Aside from that, I’ll be skipping your history class.
I will answer question 3, though, but in significantly less words:
Why in the name of all the gods would we need to form a coherent force? You’re begging the question.
To form a coherent political force, to secure and preserve recognition and protection under Federation law ? The legal position of sani sabik in the Federation will be under constant siege by agents of the Imperial orthodoxy - missionaries and such, who will be using the excesses of the Covenant to argue that Federal authorities should suppress any sani sabik cults in Gallente space. A united political force can lobby the Senate against such machinations.
Oh, I’m not the one managing anyone’s lives. I don’t presume to know or not know what people get up to in their private moments but she seems to have taken it as a personal burden to defend every Fed Sani Sabik in existence. Her time as a capsuleer would have exposed her to so much more that the average baseliner could see…I just wish she wouldn’t put herself out there with this fairy tale version of Sani Sabik assuming that everyone else in the Feds version is also rainbows and cotton candy. It’s just…ignorant.
But never change Saint Arrendis…never change…
Wow this whole thing suddenly turned into a mud throwing contest, can we not turn everything into a bloody harvest moon massacre. yes there are bad Sani and good sani in the Federation, yes the Blooders are fanatical and should be killed on sight. Can we move along now? and get some a real conversation going instead of this childish nonsense.
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I died laughing while reading this. Freedom of Expression (including religion) is already enshrined in the Federal Charter.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Federation works.
No, seriously, Azazel, I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. How is ‘are there bad people? Probably, but that’s what the police are for’ ‘defend every Fed Sani Sabik’?
I mean, that is what the police are for, isn’t it? Dealing with dangerous baseliner groups? Are you ok? Are you smoking something?
Literally all the time. Am I adulting wrong?
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You may be sanity-ing wrong 
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There are exceptions, are there not ? The Manner traditional human sacrifice, the Intaki Aenebra cult, etc. ?
Did Midna Lyre not have to defend her religious beliefs a few years ago ?
Some philosopher’s quote about not learning history and being doomed to repeat it.
@Arrendis how’s my seriousposting ?
I’ll tell you when I see some.
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Ah Lithara, I see you have not changed.
You say that the Sani faith has been corrupted. I would agree with you in some aspects of that statement. I mirror your belief that the Blood Raiders are a corruption that has been exploited to attract certain types of individuals - something the Amarr have used to great effect to scare the masses.
However you attempt to justify this belief by positing the series of events that led to this corruption, while simultaneously saying that knowing ‘an accurate history is impossible’. This is a fairly bad faith argument. You have either studied in the history with deep core understandings of the origins of the faith (in regards to as much knowledge as we can glean today), or you are guessing how it evolved. In our previous discussions and from your comments here, it is clear you have little interest in the original Sani Sabik, your focus is on what you want it to be now and how you want others to think of you.
If you cannot know what the true history or origin is then you are just identifying as Sani because it vaguely fits the description of attributes it says are good - the name Sani Sabik here is meaningless. You are attributing random values such as self improvement and individual empowerment to the word ‘Sani Sabik’. But you could easily be Caldari, they value meritocracy and self empowerment. The Achuran religion is a pure focus on self-improvement, of honing the body and mind, why do you not identify as one of them? Aspects of Sani Sabik values are mirrored in almost every society in New Eden.
I have two questions
-
If you fundamentally reject the known core tenets of the Sani Sabik AND claim that the history is unknowable, how can you claim to know what is the true Sani Sabik and how can you claim to be one of them?
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If it could be proven that the origins of the Sani Sabik are rooted in all those beliefs which you reject here, would this change your opinion on identifying as one? Would you reject the name, if you found out those principals on which the name was based were antithetical in some way to your current beliefs and find a new name to identify by? Or would your beliefs change to mirror the true Sani beliefs?
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You say that like it’s a bad thing? Every Sanist has tried to leave their mark on the faith, in their own way. Revan, Omar, Midna, Silas, Valerie, more others that I won’t list because of character limits. I’m no different. I’ve seen the benefits that the Sani faith has, the spiritual effects of the blood rites, and am fed up with Sanism being associated with the murders, rapists, psychopaths, and worse that the Blood Raiders count amongst their number.
I’ve noticed the Amarr Sanists (not all, but it seems to be a trend) have this obsession with fighting the Imperial faith. It’s some kind of zero sum battle. If you notice, in Valerie’s ‘absolutely true and correct’ history of the Sani faith, it was the original orthodox faith.
Screw orthodoxy! When did the Sani faith become slaves to orthodoxy? Sani Sabik—Blood Seed. A seed grows, it changes into something. Just because some Amarr thousands of years ago decided that he couldn’t sleep at night without cutting the heart out of someone and eating it doesn’t mean that I am bound to the same traditions.
Even the Amarr admit that they don’t know the full truth of their faith, and that it’s an evolving understanding of their god. I wish it would evolve faster into something better, as opposed to this backwards slide that seems to be happening, though. Are the Sani Sabik somehow more slaves to orthodoxy than the effing Amarr Empire? Not from where I’m sitting. New Sanists get to explore the faith, discover new truths, without worrying about what some long-dead person thinks.
The idea of history, for anyone but especially the Amarr, is that details are unknowable, but general trends might (maybe) be correct. It’s near-certain that the Sani faith originated there. What matters about history is what you believe to be true.
I believe in the legend of the Sani rising up against the oppressive aristocracies—that the blood faith was a new way forward for an ultra-conservative society. However, the powers that be wanted to remain so, and they suppressed it.
There’s no way, none whatsoever, to prove what those original Sanists believed, thought, practiced. We cannot go back in time and ask them, and after thousands of years, any records are corrupted. In the end, it doesn’t matter what they believed. Not really. And as I said, we’re not slaves to orthodoxy and conservatism. The people that came before us were not infallible. It’s not even claimed the faith wasn’t delivered on high by angels on golden tablets.
I practice Blood Rites. Often. They are a core of my faith, and while I have yet to find the words to write about them in a way to do them justice: my faith doesn’t work without them. The spirituality in Blood is deep and True.
I believe that people are capable of being great, being a savant, and they will do great things. I believe that a Sanist should always seek to improve herself. Do I believe that domination and slavery are a part of that? Absolutely not! If I seek to win a 10km foot race, but before the start break all the other competitors’ legs, then any victory is WORTHLESS.
I believe in immortality. I’m a capsuleer. I’m more or less there. In fact, I credit my Sani faith for getting me through a punishing pod school. More to the point, I also believe in spiritual immortality. When I share my blood, I share my spirit. If I die, then my spirit lives on. And when others whom I have shared with share again, part of me goes with them. In that way, I live forever, so long as the legacy of my faith lives forever.
This is why I call myself Sani Sabik. This is why I am Sani Sabik.
The religions are not outlawed. The murdering is outlawed. Murdering is illegal for anyone, for any reason. As far as Midna’s defense of her faith, that was not a legal defense, but a social defense. The Amarrian nut that wanted her music banned was never taken seriously.
This is one of the nicest compliments anyone has given me.
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That’s not what I said though. I said that initially, the cult that was to become known as Sani Sabik was an otherwise orthodox cult of the Amarr religion. One of many.
Errr, no. That’s not how history works. Also, “records being corrupt”, “rewriting and editing history (by the Amarr Empire authorities)” is suspect as well.
You can only rewrite or edit history if you have a monopoly of custody of the history. Which the Amarr Empire does not. Their official history might say X, but they are not the sole custodian of any documents or artifacts from the period that X happened, and other groups would have evidence that Y happened.
While some data storage things may become corrupted, others do not. There are more than a few hard data sources available for many historical events.
Are you forgetting that I am a historian & archaeologist ? History is the method of describing what appears to have happened in the past, based on the available evidence. Archaeology is the science of finding and interpreting that evidence.
Don’t worry, Val, you never let anyone forget what you claim to be.
Something I’ll add for the newer folks: Sabiks 'round these parts (The IGS) should always remember that a little goes a long way when it comes to this sort of thing.
I know it’s fun to declare the Right and Proper orthodoxy and put certain types on notice (guilty!), but just remember to keep it succinct. While some participants might think this a clever debate about the finer points of religious orthodoxy, most everyone else in the cluster sees a bunch of quote unquote cultists throwing ■■■■ at each other for an audience of millions. While I’m sure one or two of you have some good points, it won’t matter, and your message will be diluted. The Imperials do have it right on this sort of thing and keep the internecine squabbles behind closed doors. Ciao!
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Yes, but the Imperials all insist on One True Orthodoxy™. It just happens to be whichever one they espouse. That makes it a lot easier to yell ‘everybody shut up you’re letting them see the cracks!’