The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

Find somebody interested and I’ll give you one of the Indy corps that are just pirat alts. Now I didn’t mean your specific Indy corp I was meaning an imaginary one being used as the example.

I realize the loss is meaningful to Indy groups. Look up ‘Emotional Net Loss’ we ransomed a few dozen and killed others. But the thing is there is no reason for these groups to fight each other. Without that it will always be people doing what I did to ‘victims’. If you wanna see ‘victims’ done away with the system needs an entire rework from method of limiting decs (currently its isk), conflict drivers and more meaning to form a diverse group

I do think neutral reps should be stamped out - it feels like an exploit

Point is, though, that removing asset safety wouldn’t really stop the wealth accretion in nullsec. The only thing that’ll do that is a long, sustained war that people can’t escape… and when they can just load up JFs and get their stuff to indestructible stations in lowsec, move all their normal caps to those same stations, and then safe-log their supers (again, in LS, so no bubbles)…

Nope. Logging out still lets you avoid wars and keep your wealth. Funny, that, how you can’t be forced to do a thing you don’t wanna do in a voluntary activity like an MMO.

yeah but neutral logi are seldom random passer bys, they are alts of one side or the other. Care to hazard a guess as to which side usually has neutral logis? Go on, take a guess.

m

isn’t it suppress the enemy for a specific purpose? Gain territory etc? What specific purpose to PIRAT and Marmite have for wardecs? How many have a purpose beyond making explosions?Yopu are harking back to an old and very BAD proposal that wardec could only be made IF a good reason existed for them, like you had been ganked by the enemy.

m

All wars are about the capture or denial of territory.

Battles are a part of war but in some cases occupied territories and avoided battles can win a war.

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At some point that information will be useful, however at this point it won’t be useful as the balance is too far out.

OK, was just making sure, because I decided not to do indy with structures as I could not defend them.

Good, people do it for loll’s, but if it is a hisec entity doing it then they have spent a lot of time and effort to set that up, as ISK generation is not that good despite what people say and while it is LOL to those blowing them up it may be many months of work and effort for the hisec indy corp.

Indy groups, of course there is and it happens, people mining out the belts and ice belts, people wanting to charge for manufacturing so they will remove competitors and good luck to them.

Yes currently they are farming victims and that is it, which is why the victims don’t bother to log in. The objective is to rebalance the environment and mechanics to reduce the ease in which they are currently farmed as victims. I am under no illusion, this is a long road back for hisec from the dire state it is in now.

As I said I am amused at the fear coming back (not from you) from various war deckers over the Propaganda structure. If it is more people in space looking for a fight then what is the issue and if they lose some, so what?

docked up in npc station and logged off, any stuff left in ns is up to the loot-fairy. sounds like winning to me. or wh space.

They are the classic roadside bandits.

Stop trying to tell others how to play their game. It’s their game, too, and when you restrict their game and force them to play it the way you think they should be playing it then you’re not solving problems, but you’re creating them. These players will simply leave the game sooner, because they cannot find their desired content.

Begin to understand that when you want more players coming into the game and staying then you need to make room for them and not throw others out of their corner.

The worst part about people attacking PIRAT, Marmite and all the other successful corps is that they are having success and people don’t want them to have it. They like the game, they know how to play, they pay for it and they’re likely going to stay with it for a long time. They are your “cash cow”. These players need to be left where they are and not get punished, because other players have a problem and run off.

What you do to solve this is you make it a little easier for the quitters to remain here and to let them use the time to think it over. If they still want to quit then that’s ultimately their choice to make. You cannot force them either when they don’t want to stay. And when their demand is that they will only stay when the others leave, then you may begin to comprehend why sometimes it doesn’t work out and one needs to let people leave. You then look for other players who are more willing to play the game and find ways to make those who are already happily playing it to stay a little longer.

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Not having social corps is a really big part of why this game is dying and has lost so many new players over the years. As fun as sitting in a pipe and killing newb corps mixed in with other players is, it’s really bad for the games health as a whole.

At a bare minimum they need to be added to even stop the bleeding. But tbh at this point it really doesn’t matter, EVE can’t be fixed anymore, It’s too late. People who previously tried the game aren’t going to come back and new players aren’t going to join.

The game feels like a desert compared to even 6 months ago and it’s not going to change for the better anymore. Among CCP’s many, many, many trash decisions and fuckups, this is probably the one that’s the worst.

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In a sandbox tradition “players doomed players to this fate”

CCP is only like some god that is watching indiferently, not answering pryers. :neutral_face:

Who’s leaving stuff in NS? If you’re worried enough to head to an NPC station, you used a jump freighter to get all your stuff out, and jumpclones/interceptors/T3Cs to run back and forth to get your capitals out before jumping the supers out on multiple alts and safelogging.

ok. then asset safety removal would be nbd. lets do it!

Many of our clients are industrials who want to control the hubs, ice belts or certain areas. Without war dec alliances (aka isks sinks) the markets would go to ■■■■.

when you say many do you mean most or some? Look I am not actually attacking wardecs but I am trying to get real info to make a more informed opinion. I looked at teh August MER and saw that Wardecs were a sink but not a very big one in the grand scheme of things

yes 329 billion is a big number until you see what it has to compete with.

Tora, do you think wardecs will stay as they are now or do you think CCP will fix them in some way? So you think it would be advisable to help them with fixes or just nay say every idea other than ‘leave them like they are’?

m

Here’s the problem with asset safety removal as it is right now:

Bob is in a nullsec corp. Bob has all his stuff in his alliance’s Fortizar. Bob is also in the military, and ends up getting sent to deal with the relief efforts in a natural disaster. Or a war. Or he gets hit with a hurricane, and spends a month without power (as happened to some folks each of the last two years). Or any one of a number of RL crises that he has no control over conspire to say “You don’t get to be online for an extended period of time, abruptly and unexpectedly!” Maybe he got hit by a car, and his arms are broken or something. The why doesn’t matter, really.

While he’s gone, the citadel gets RF’d, then blown up.

One of the longstanding carrots to get people to come back to EVE after an extended break has always been ‘your stuff is still here’. Removing asset safety as a blanket issue gives those players no reason to come back. My own personal preference is to treat it (you’ll love this) like wormholes.

Which isn’t what you think it is.

If you’ve got a ship logged off in a wormhole, and the account’s inactive either for a pre-determined period of time, or long enough to get caught in a regular activity sweep, your ship gets moved out of the hole, into LS. I know this because when my mining corp moved into j-space, we eventually set up in a C4.

As you no doubt know, C4 wormholes aren’t big enough for capital ships to get in. However, as people who made most of our cash on mining, we wanted to be able to compress ore to make moving things to market easier. Also, we wanted better boosts than our Orca provided. So we built a Rorqual.

Eventually, the corp got a bit too inactive, and we decided to close up shop, take down all three towers, etc. But, just in case we ever wanted to come back in, we left the rorq pilot in the hole, carrying a bay full of miners, a large tower, and a week’s worth of fuel blocks. We also left a scanning alt in there, so we could get people in quickly without having to leave things unattended.

Six months later, the rorq pilot logged into his account to check something on a different character, and spotted his rorq sitting in lowsec. Karjataimon, I think.

The ship that couldn’t leave that hole had left that hole. A similar ‘you haven’t logged in for x months’ provision for asset safety to LS would preserve the carrot for returning players, while ensuring that active players technically still have assets at risk… even though the length of an RF timer means that if you don’t evac your crap, you’re an idiot who deserved to lose it.

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Pretty sure he means isk sink as in destroyed war targets ect … not literal isk sinks to war costs.

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He gave his informed and reasonable suggestions on how to fix wars above and weren’t at all saying ‘leave them like they are’:

I know this is a fast moving thread, but please try to keep up and remain constructive. Pointing out that ‘something needs to change’ isn’t an especially useful response when people point out the problems with some of the ideas being suggested here given we all know that.

We need to explore all the pros and cons of possible fixes and their impact on the game

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Fair call and yes the thread does go fast. That along with the fact that I tend to not read names (as that might bias my opinion of what is being said) leaves me occasionally with egg on my face (like now)

There are some who seem to shoot down each and every suggestion that is made or quote malcanis law and show how no change will work. I am hoping a compromise can be realised that is more than just fiddling with knobs.

I do not debate statistics/data unless I have numbers in front of me, (Comes from having taught this stuff) so I will take the data analysis at face value unless it is shown to be otherwise.

What I would like is some indicator of timeline from CCP. If you are sure (damn sure) that it needs fixing and we are losing players how long will a fix be waiting in the wings?

m

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If he is the only one person that can do maintanance in the citadel, he failed to understand its not a single player thing to have structure like citadel. About the stuff that is inside it: its not high sec empire station and never was supposed to be. Its just a capsuleer structure and those are very independent from empires standpoint, no guarantee for enything beside what capsuleers can maintain. That should be always in the back of the head of those who build those. Also CCP should put a sign on every citadel with “NO GUARANTEE” text on it.