If someone steals your loot, they go suspect.
You can shoot them on Green setting afaik, without going suspect yourself.
They can continue to do so in NPC Corps.
Doesnt mean they should be able to do so in a Social Corps.
There is no reason for them to not be able to do so in social corps. It doesnât provide them any new ways to abuse anything. So⌠onus is on you to find a reason they shouldnât be. And that means a real reason, not some made up tinfoil theory about the evil null overlords.
There is reason not to allow it.
So Social Corps arent abused as pirate hiding Corps.
Players with below 0.1 Sec can join NPC Corps instead.
Bleating the same response 10000 times doesnât make it true.
There is no way to abuse it in this way you are claiming, therefore there is no reason to stop it.
Itâs literally a disadvantage for someone to make a pirate social corp compared to operating out of an NPC corp.
Lets say there is a Social Corps of 10 members with -5.0 Sec each.
That defeats the purpose of a Social Corps as a way for HS friends to run PvE together without wardecs.
Suicide Gankers could thus form Social Corps, and be wardec immune.
Oh no, a social corp of people who can all be shot without concord intervention anyway.
How terrible of them to make a nice corp that we can add as a -10 contact and see when their 11th member who is still 0.0 joins them or flies into local.
What a terrible abuse of the gameâŚ
Literally this achieves nothing for them, they gain no real advantage, other than getting to have a catchy name and a slightly better social identity.
And these social identities are exactly the point that social corps are meant to address.
A bunch of gankers using one⌠who cares, it gives them nothing. So why block it.
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Then why allow it into Social Corps?
What positive reason is there to do so?
How would it be disadvantageous to form a Social Corp of pirates or Suicide Gankers, compared to NPC?
They can continue to run from NPC Corps, as now.
Because there is no reason to limit social corps to one particular type of group.
Any group that wants a social identity but doesnât want structures or wardecs should be able to gain that social identity. CCP studies have repeatedly shown that social connections are what keep people in EVE. So we should encourage that, not slap it down and go âBut not you, you donât get thisâ.
You havent stated any positive reason why to allow <0.1 Sec players into Social Corps.
You yourself said they wont benefit in anyway, and would infact be worse off than using NPC Corp.
The whole point of the Social Corp idea, is so that a small group of HS friends can PvE together without wardecs.
Not so pirates and suicide gankers can form Social Corps and aggress others illegally, scout, sit at gates, and fly their loot retrievers, and perform suspect flag causing acts, without being wardecced, in a Social Corp.
Did you forget that?
Or is that why you wanted Social Corps all along?
Sorry to dissappoint you.
Not going to happen as you want them.
No, the whole point of social corps is to allow a social group to form.
Thatâs it.
You are the one who has tried to limit the social corp idea to only those doing the right sort of PvE that fit your agenda.
The rest of these bogus âlimitationsâ you are trying to press as âneededâ are actually going to make the system pretty much DoA. And serve no purpose other than to punish people for doing an activity you disagree with.
You are yet to come up with a way which âopenâ social corps could actually be abused that is a real abuse, not a tinfoil theory that doesnât hold up to the reality of EVE.
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Thats already possible by forming a Player Corp.
You are, yourself, missing and ambiguating that the Social Corp idea was so that a small group of HS friends can PvE together, wihout getting wardecced, which would lead to them logging off and never returning. Thats the whole point of the Social Corp idea.
You are trying to weaponize Social Corps, in a way they are not intended to be.
Social Corps are not intended to allow Suicide Gankers to form Social Corps, that are unwardeccable, with which they suicide gank, scout, sit at gates, bump and retrieve loot.
Social Corps are not intended so that there are unwardeccable LS/NS/WH Social Corps.
That would be pointless, as wardecs are irrelevant in LS/NS/WHs.
The whole point is so that a group of friends can join together in a Social Corp to PvE without wardecs, and that is relevant ONLY in HS.
They have no need to go to LS/NS/WHs where they can be legally shot regardless of wardec immunity, and have no need of Yellow/Red Safety to run PvE in HS, and as you stated yourself, there is no reason for a <0.1 Sec player to join one.
Social Corps wont be DOA, for HS groups of friends that want to PvE together.
They can finally PvE their hearts out together in HS without wardecs.
Or even a Solo player to have their own Corp name and identity, without wardecs.
Thats who it is for.
But yes, it will be DOA to your expectations to weaponize it.
If Salvos is advocating for Green Safety for Social Corps.
I agree with him.
Want to be able to shoot people? Rank up.
The Social Corp idea is intended to enable a small group of friends in HS to PvE together, without being wardecced. Or a solo HS PvE player to have his own undeccable Corp and identity. This is meant to be a solution for them currently leaving during wardecs, and never returning.
It is not intended to allow Suicide Gankers to form Social Corps, or for LS/NS/WH to form Social Corps.
Because other groups in EvE never find ways to use new mechanics to their benefit.
This is why I advocate for no change to corps, but rather a change to how HS operates, with limits on mission level based on the are you run the missions in. That way thereâs no change to corps as of now, no new benefits, no new way to play the system. Using the granularity afforded by the system security levels allows for protection of newer players whilst still being able to run newer player PvE content. It also allows War corps a reasonable chunk of space in which to prosecute wars, hunt targets, camp the pipes etc.
As previously acknowledged it would be a big change, but itâs one that could be worked in tranches. This would make dealing with structures in what would be safe areas something that could be dealt with afterwards, and in steps too to minimize impact.
@Nevyn_Auscent I think you mentioned you didnât like limiting level IV missions to what would be war space. For people to be interested in progressing there needs to be carrot as well as stick. However there also needs to be an area where newer players can continue to function even if under wardec. This would provide both.
Explain.
PS: Missions, of any type, are only a fraction of PvE in HS.
Mining is also PvE, whether for ore or ice. So is exploration of data/relic/DED sites.
Missions are already tiered according to Sec of the system, afaik.
Are you trying to suggest wardecs wont work in HS?
Whats the point of that, since HS is the only place they matter (aside from incidental LS gate or NPC station guns)?
I already explained my idea a while back, and donât want to keep spamming it into the thread. Mining is indeed PvE, with better ore available as you go down the security status systems. The same applies to DED sites, scanned relic and data sites, the probability of ghost/sleeper cache sites etc.
If you are under wardec you can take the risk with appropriate precautions of still operating in 0.7, 0.6, 0.5 space (as an example), mine, run missions, explore etc. However the war corp could now hunt you rather than just sit at hubs fishing at the gates.
However whilst under wardec all content in 1.0, 0.9, 0.8 systems would still be available to all corp players as the Empires would no longer allow the prosecution of wars in thses systems. Wardecced corps would still obviously be viable gank targets potentially, but more importantly new players would still have access to most (if not all) of the content intended for them. Older players in the corp should know how to handle being under wardec, so should be able to operate as thye do now.
The topography of EVE in HS has 1.0-0.5 systems adjacent to each other, and mixed up.
Your proposal would mean play players could get stuck in a 1.0-0.8 system surrounded by 0.7-0.5 systems.
Also, how would you aggress Player Corp Structurs placed in 1.0-0.8 systems?
Your idea is terribad.
Because the default state of human interaction is permissiveness, rather than restriction. We donât make laws that say âyou can do Xâ, we make laws to say âdonât do Yâ. Similarly, every restriction placed on a social corp is one more restriction the developers have to write. Itâs one more interaction with the UI the client needs to check for everyone.
Letâs say youâre not in a social corp. Letâs say youâre in a ârealâ corp. You go to flip a can in HS. Right now, regardless of the setting of your safety, the game has to check the status of your safety. It has to ask âis this something I need to stop you from doing?â
You can rail on all you want about âis it significant?!?â, like we all know you will, but it adds up. Every time someone goes to shoot someone in HS, âAre you in a social corp?â will need to be checked. If someone activates an AoE weapon or ECM burst⌠âare you in a social corp?â And it all adds up, especially in lowsec, where weâve already seen what happens when Crimewatch, which is supposed to be no big deal for the game engine, is active in a large fight.
From a position of conservation of effort (which influences how likely something is to get made in the first place) and performance expectations, restrictions should only be enacted where absolutely necessary.
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Lulwat? Citation needed.
Human interaction is restricted by laws and rules, not permissiveness.
To paraphrase, that which is not forbidden, is permitted.
Restrictions delineate that which is permitted, not vice versa.
This is also the fundamental basis of consent.
Your statement above is utterly false and backwards.
Nothing in your post is in the least bit relevant to the concrete issues in EVE, or the Social Corp idea.
It only makes sense for Social Corps to be useful only for small HS group of friends to PvE together without wardecs, as that is the current source of attrition as being wardecced, logging out, and never returning.
It is not intended as a means for Suicide Corps to form Social Corps, or for LS/NS/WH to form Social Corps.