I care about EVE.
Its meant and given a lot to me, and I want it to do the same for as many others possible, for as long as possible.
Sorry if that is a problem for you, but not sorry.
If that was true, youâd put a lot more thinking of the consequences your ideas would bring.
So I highly doubt it
Ive put a great deal of thinking into them, and a great deal of time into explaining those thoughts here.
Congratulations, youâve just described the default state (ie: the state in which things exist before effort is made to alter conditions) of human interaction: permissiveness. Everything is allowed, because nobody has made any rules yet.
Certainly.
I agree that the Social Corp idea, in all its various forms, is intended to allow groups of high-sec PvErs to have their own corporate structure (not âstructures in spaceâ) around which to form social bonds and group identity without suffering war declarations through CONCORD, Further, I agree that the intention to avoid war declarations is rooted in the theory that this will reduce attrition and promote retention, yes.
While not specifically intended for that purpose, preventing players in a social corp from engaging in these activities would either require additional time and effort on the part of developers (ganking, can flipping, ship scanning) or be outright impossible (gate-watching once a target is identified, bumping). Additionally, these additional restrictions have nothing to do with the stated intention of promoting retention among members of the social corp. They neither help, nor harm that goal.
As a result, they are restrictions that are not needed. Restrictions that are not needed are a waste of effort in their creation, as well as a waste of resources in their enforcement[1], and should at all times be avoided. The conclusion that must then be drawn is that without a specific need for these restrictions to be placed on social corps, they should not be.
Similarly, the ability to operate beyond HS is not part of the specific intention of social corps. However, this does not mean there is no benefit to be gained from allowing them to do so. In fact, if social corps can operate in areas that are acknowledged to be specifically unsafe, this increases the likelihood that those players will choose to do so.
It increases this likelihood because human behavior can be seen in a general sense to follow the physical laws of motion: inertia applies, and actions have reactions. People tend to behave in predictable ways, adhering to reliable patterns, and need incentives to break out of those patterns. If we want people in HS social corps to eventually dip their toes into PvP, they have to have avenues by which to do so.
For many, the impetus to move into more dangerous space is obvious: money. Being able to, for example, make money in a C2 wormhole without needing to worry about whether their haulers will be emerging into a wardec through a static into highsec⌠that, for example, could be enough motivation to get players to move beyond the PvE-only mindset.
In this manner, the fact that the social corp provides a limited safe space in high sec (they can, after all, still be ganked) while allowing players to investigate more dangerousâand more rewardingâaspects of gameplay can only increase retention overall.
As such, the established purpose of Social Corps is clearly helped by the absence of additional, artificial restrictions on this behavior. So, no, Iâd have to say I donât agree, and there is a clearly demonstrable âpointâ to Social Corps engaging in the indicated behavior.
Then you shouldnât ask questions which require complete and reasoned answers.
- Theyâre also an infringement upon the natural agency of humanity, and should be avoided on that basis alone, but as weâre talking about a computer game here, thatâs kind of a tertiary concern.
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^^^^^
This guy gets it.
Good. Agreed.
Its intended for HS small groups or solo players to have Corp identity, without being wardecced. Nothing more, nothing less.
Social Corps will be a new mechanic, and should serve the purpose it is intended for, to which you agreed above.
Its not for Suicide Gankers to form a nondeccable Social Corp they can scout, gate sit, bump, suicide gank and retrieve loot in.
Its not for LS/NS/WH, where wardecs dont matter.
Agreed.
It is not intended for Social Corps to operate beyond HS, or beyond the purview of PvE.
Glad we agree.
Kindly do not lie and attempt to mis-characterize my statements.
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?
You are addressing yourself.
My reply was to you. And you know it. Do not lie and attempt to claim my words mean other than they do.
And now I have clarified the earlier post.
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Well that makes life easier for us WH folks for a start. Just create a social corp for hisec hauling and be immune to wardecs, whilst having lower taxes thrown in. Iâm pretty sure there will be others whoâll love this too.
Thatâs just one way itâll benefit those it isnât intended for, Iâm sure thereâll be many more.
This quote you linked is not mine:
So, no, Iâd have to say I donât agree, and there is a clearly demonstrable âpointâ to Social Corps engaging in the indicated behavior.
I have not said that.
You are confusing me for someone else, and I have not lied or misrepresented you
No, I am using my own quoted words to refute your claim that we agreed. We do not agree. You are demonstrably (as I have, in fact, demonstrated) wrong.
And now you are lying.
You repeatedly claim you are not Salvos. Iâm willing to believe that, as I have no proof you are. However, if you are Salvos (as you behave very much like him), Iâll remind you who it was whose insistence that you answer a simple question caused you to retract your empty claim of running for the CSM.
And if youâre not Salvos⌠consider that a warning. I will not let the matter go. I will continue to demand that you are accountable for your statements and your lies. I enjoy being a pedantic jerk, and I so rarely get to indulge myself to the degree that Iâd like.
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To have any restrictions on being able to operate outside of HS is counter productive. The goal of establishing a social corporation entity is to not only establish the social bonds that help retain paying customers in the game, but also allows them a base (community structure/group wise) to expand and grow in exploring other aspects of EVE outside the HS area. Preventing them to even have an opportunity to explore LS/WH via less than productive attempts fails to stimulate the growth of the HS player; something that both CCP and everyone else wants to occur for the betterment of the game as a whole.
Everyone knows that once you step over the line and enter LS/WH space the rules change, but you should encourage these social corps to at least try to enter these areas. Even if 90% try, get wrecked, and return back to HS vowing never to return to areas outside of HS, you will get some finding out that the game offers so much more outside of HS and those people will tend to bring their friends and social type corps with them. We all win when that happens.
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Exactly. Or, you knowâŚ
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I did no such thing.
You edited your post which changed its meaning from what I read and responded to in its original form, before the edit.
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Social Corps are intended for HS small groups or solo players to form, so they can PvE and not be wardecced. This is to prevent them logging off during wardec, and never returning.
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Social Corps are not intended for Suicide Gankers to form so they can scout, gate sit, bump, suicide gank and retrieve loot while being wardec immune.
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Social Corps are not intended for LS/NS//WH use, where wardecs are irrelevant.
Thats it.
So how is this going to work? Does the whole corp change to a standard current style corp? Or are the new players going to have to change corp and therefore lose the previous group they were playing alongside?
Both are bad, say you change from a social corp to a standard corp. Then you get wardecced and the corpies didnât truly understand what the effects of this would be. What then? Switch the corp back to social? What if theyâve put up structures? What if in the week theyâd have to wait we still lose those players due to not logging in?
How on Earth are you going to stop people doing this? You canât enforce it without re-writing lots of the crimewatch system I would imagine, and that would not be pleasant. What features are intended to do, and how they are used are always two entirely different things.
Again, is this enforced? If so you are locking new players away from the best content that can get them truly hooked, but whilst they still have a safer are they can go back to and recover lost assets. Without it being enforced LS/Null/WH folks will find allsorts of ways to use these corps.
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Your previous posts have demonstrated that this statement is then usedâby youâas the basis for why you think Social Corps should not be allowed to operate in LS/NS/WH. Further, itâs obvious that your conclusions were the basis for the premise, rather than the normal way 'round. You donât want them in LS/NS/WH, so you went looking for âhow do I justify that?â
I categorically disagree with your conclusion, and I find your premise, while technically accurate, to be factually incomplete. Social Corps are also not specifically intended to promote breathing. Does this mean we should restrict them to people who donât breathe? The distinction makes no sense, and is irrelevant. Similarly, the fact that Social Corpsâas you outline themâare not specifically intended for LS/NS/WH does not mean they are specifically intended to avoid LS/NS/WH.
In fact, Social Corps are not intended to keep people out of LS/NS/WH, regardless of the efficacy of wardecs in those regions, are they?
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Social Corps dont keep people out of LS/NS/WHs.
Anyone can go there.
All they have to do, to do so, is leave the Social Corp.
Thats a choice they can make at any time.
If they want to play in LS/NS/WH, they dont need a Social Corp, nor will its wardec immunity serve them there. They can fly there in NPC Corp, or join a Player Corp there.
So you want to introduce social corps that give new players less flexibility than they currently have by just using NPC corps and a chat channel.
What is the point in that?
Point is, for the upteenth time, that a group of friends, or a solo player, can PvE together in HS, without wardecs, with their own Corp tag and identity.
This is to prevent them logging off when wardecced, and never returning.
Thats all.