The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook

[leavwiz]

i am glad to see so many dev responses in the thread. although they are typically vague and use the words risk/reward a lot. it is a good sign that they are reading our notes So just a few things to consider.

1. So much is tied to structures and modules, that random respawning is just a cheap mechanic to help pvp players find moving industrial targets.
2. if i hear “defend your space”: from a roaming ganker who only has to have a pvp ship one more time i will scream. why should industrialists require themselves and a host of others while the pvp guy just floats around alone or with a few friends/
3. we didnt ask for rorquals to become mining platforms. they were boosting ships. making them OP miners and then nerfing them over and over along with reducing rock size is just stupid. rethink the rorqual. and btw, making excavator drones bigger had nothing to do with mining , it was all about making rorquals bigger loot pinata’s what other explanation is there for that change?
4. structures need fuel. fuel takes ice. constellations need ice.
5. A lot of people play to be social and do mining or whatever while they chat in comms. while i hate afk anything, there should be aspects of gameplay that are actually relaxing .
6. if PVP needs income (and they do) the ESS isnt the answer. higher drop rate is. then the pvp player has the choice to loot what he can carry and face the same challenges indy people do to get it to market.
7. Stop being so focused on triglavian stuff to the exclusion of other new content. whether is be missions or ratting anomalies, or data sites. etc. TRIG seems too much like forced gameplay that many of us are not interested in.
8. cloaky camping doesnt seem that complicated. just require fuel. would add a logistical element
9. most of my comments in the forums are from the perspective of an indy player in small organizatioln. I have multiple accounts each with specific roles including pvp. I sometimes feel like the labels applied to each other in posts speaks of a narrow perspective. I hope CCP can see through that and appreciate all of us.
   Thanks for the work you do , even though last year was difficult on us and we saw many friends leave the game. hopefully not permanently.
   happy new year

[Scorp_Majors]

A cloak fatigue factor that only regenerates from spending time in space while not cloaked would be fun I think.

[Yuki_Akiyo]

i dont get it, what was the goal for this post. if i have to summary it, nothing new in it.

[littlertree]

HAHAH blody hell i forget to screachot that reply of tht ccp DEV claiming they cant improve the content in hs XDD
wat is the matter CCP u alaredy liying for bigger things why u will lie for smallthings like hs content?

[Chan_aar]

@CCP_Rattati

Hi everyone and merry Christmas. We will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and even create a couple of breakout threads for some more in depth analysis if necessary.

I am hoping we can have a good and productive conversation about the multiple topics brought up in the devblog and by the community.

Yes it is necessary if you want to avoid some of the outrage we have seen during this past year of surprise changes.

I am hoping we see some discussion as well, preferably with some CCP involvement rather than just players batting things back and forth. You know that is what made Eve Online stand out you know, the willingness of the dev’s to interact on their forums and discuss changes with the community.

(oh and btw I do mean the forums and not flocking reddit)

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@CCP_Rattati

I think its quite clear that the majority of our effort has been on reigning in risk free resource generation in nullsec. EVE should be all about risk and reward, and highsec is a big part of the equation, it should have lower risk and appropriate reward.

Well, thanks for the reply and more importantly, thanks for taking the time to actually browse these forums.

As for the majority of your efforts being focused on reigning in Null Sec risk free ISK generation, your actions appear to be the exact opposite. At the start you guys were on the right track with the Null Sec Local Black Out and roaming Drifter attacks, but then you guys caved in and once again continued nerfing High Sec with a vengeance.

I agree on having an equal balance of Risk to Reward ratio, however in Null Sec that balance has been heavily skewed to reward for a long time while High Sec has been heavily skewed to Risk. And after looking at all the recent changes done, that scenario doesn’t appear to be changing anytime soon.

[Chan_aar]

If you cloak you pop out of the local channel so

• 1. you can’t be seen by the other occupants
• 2. you can’t see the other occupants

Nerf’s passive intel for both sides, which is why they would hate it.

[Jinzu_Zul]

Jesus, I’ve heard about the bittervet syndrome, but this is a whole new level. Just stop playing already. I can feel your blood pressure rising through the screen.

[Dictateur_Imperator]

You don’t nerf the intel and fact you are totally safe to tacle people and deny all response fleet by deleting people in less of 20 second.

And it’s a huge buff for hunter, they are a lot more safe to hunt.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@CCP_Rattati

Geographical scarcity and variance does drive conflict, and did in the past until it was monopolized. We are solving for both with limited quantity and geographically distributed critical resources.

With all due respect, can you point to anything that demonstrates this? The changes to ore distribution has not, as far as I can see, caused any conflict, just meant that NS corporations now have mining fleets in HS at no risk to themselves. That is not causing any conflict.

Of course, conversely (quelle surprise) there is plenty of very high risk for any HS player that wants to get the ores which they can no longer access in HS. Taking potentially suicidal risks is not conflict either.

Letting the Trigs take out Niarja has not created any lasting conflict, just focused all the existing HS gankers (ganking is not real conflict) into even more predictable and lethal chokepoints, and introduced random death by Trig NPCs for those who do not wish to or cannot indulge ridiculous gamey mechanics to get +0.0001 standing in Pochven.

Please, if you are going to make claims such as these, show a bit of evidence. That would earn my respect, and might even convince me that your claims had some basis. I am afraid, rightly or wrongly, I have no such faith or respect at the moment.

[Bob_der_Blob]

wait wait wait??? did i read it right? “NO COUNTERPLAY” gainst cloacky campers??cant be… all thoose years i was reading it works as intendet and you can easy fight em?

[zazzmatazz_Xu]

@Tharvus

CCP isn’t ruining THE game, they’re ruining YOUR game.

Posted like a good little bee, this is their motto and now CCP model too since goonswarm member joined the dev ranks.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@CCP_Dopamine

reviewing the work that has gone into rebuilding the EVE Online ecosystem in 2020

You mean destroying don’t you?

I love this:

So you think we are going to sub for 2 years while you flail around trying to get it right?

[Tharvus]

@zazzmatazz_Xu

Posted like a good little bee, this is their motto and now CCP model too since goonswarm member joined the dev ranks.

No see, that’s why it was funny. I’m no bee, never was never will be. The one I REPLIED to, the one whining and rage quitting, is a bee.

[RealEchnaton]

@Helmi

“AFK cloaky camping, with improved systems to get rid of the frustration of AFK cloaking and its total lack of counterplay without removing the ability for hunters to catch lazy prey”

-the solution is very simple! Makes the local in 0.0 space like a WH local!
so there is more dynamic in 0.0

Maybe the owner of the space can choose the mode:

• like today, local + afk cloak possible
• no cloak possible + delayed local.

My personal favorite is, that cloaking need fuel and a ship should able to have a fuel bay for aprox. 3 hours cloak.

[RealEchnaton]

@Chan_aar

If you cloak you pop out of the local channel so

• 1. you can’t be seen by the other occupants
• 2. you can’t see the other occupants

Nerf’s passive intel for both sides, which is why they would hate it.

Really interesting idea…

[RealEchnaton]

@Scorp_Majors

A cloak fatigue factor that only regenerates from spending time in space while not cloaked would be fun I think.

This is easily be able to solvable via simple botting.

Fuel is better.

[Arrendis]

@Kal_Kalagan

There is extreme risk in what we do. If you doubt that then I invite you to try living and hunting in a hostile staging system. One slip up and you die.

Been there, done that, got the jacket Asher made me buy. Yes, what you’re doing is literally safer than ratting in highsec. Sorry.

@CCP_Rattati

Geographical scarcity and variance does drive conflict, and did in the past until it was monopolized. We are solving for both with limited quantity and geographically distributed critical resources.

And variance. That’s the thing: someone has to have resources, as opposed to nobody having them. But yes, you will see groups establishing trade cartels, because in the long run, that, not warfare, is the optimized solution to ‘you have stuff we don’t and we want some’.

Just remember: the last time we had the conditions you’re describing, literally all of nullsec ended up split roughly 50/50 by 2 blocs. And things stagnated, far worse than anything we’ve seen since Aegis sov went in¹.

People will always seek optimized solutions, and the big players in null have over fifteen years dealing with one another. We want to go to war. All you really need to do is remove the obstacles—and scarcity hasn’t.

Look at how the war is currently ground down. Everyone knows it’ll be decided one of two ways:

1. People just stop showing up because it’s a grind. Because… it’s a grind, and people get tired of the grind, especially when grinding it out means they have to be on the wrong side of the map, not doing the things they want to be doing. We’re lucky, this war: it came to us. We have all our stuff here, and when the war ends, all our stuff will still be wherever we are. We won’t even have to go home, we’re already there.

2. A major, deciding supercapital fight. You know, kinda like the one two months ago that the servers couldn’t handle because fighter mechanics prevented the damage from multiple doomsdays from hitting non-fighters. Let’s get one thing clear, though: you’re not going to see that massive supercapital brawl unless someone screws up. You’re not going to see it because alliances aren’t willing to throw away ships they need in order to hold their space. Because every war will get to this point, the point of ‘well, it’s gonna be decided by the supers’.
   And you haven’t addressed that. You haven’t even begun to address that. All the changes that have happened have not made supercapitals even one iota less necessary for holding space. And they haven’t made holding space any less necessary for building up a supercapital fleet. So the closed loop of ‘you can’t afford to lose your supers’ is still there. If anything, it’s gotten worse as they’ve gotten harder and more expensive to build, because the people who have them aren’t getting rid of them, and the people who don’t have them… can’t get them. Not in the kind of numbers they need.

So no, scarcity hasn’t removed the obstacles to war. Vily and Progod just managed to offer PandaFam a no-lose scenario: either we’ll lose, or Legacy will lose. And if we lose? Legacy still loses, because PandaFam will hit them next. Either way, PanFam and FRT win, because their money-making assets were never at risk.

If Legacy is willing to shoot themselves in the head like that, Vince et al would be fools not to help them do it. So they’re helping. Foolishness, not scarcity, not anything CCP did, removed an obstacle—Legacy’s sense of self-preservation—and made this war possible.

That’s what’s needed: remove the obstacles, without creating massive additional amounts of tedium. Because let’s keep in mind, even the largest war EVE’s ever seen, both in terms of active hot-war duration and player count… hasn’t increased destruction, overall:

@zazzmatazz_Xu

and now CCP model too since goonswarm member joined the dev ranks.

‘now’? Dude, DJ / CCP Sreegs has been gone from CCP for almost ten years.

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^{1. And the biggest thing that Aegis did to break up that stagnation was forcing people into smaller footprints, forcing them to live in the space they held. Of course, that just led to widening rental empires—something else you really need to address if you want to avoid massive income streams for no risk, because there is literally nothing that better exemplifies ‘risk-free money’ than letting a bunch of conflict-avoidant PvEers pay you not to stomp on their stuff.}

[Tipa_Riot]

@CCP_Rattati

EVE should be all about risk and reward, and highsec is a big part of the equation, it should have lower risk and appropriate reward.

Can you elaborate more on that and the original message about highsec changes? For me this sounds like you want to make highsec safer maybe from low sec status gankers?

[Arrendis]

Also kinda sounds like they’ll need to reduce the ability to make money in highsec, where L4 missions, Incursions, and mining are all currently massive money-makers.