The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing

No.

■■■■ off.

I’m done.

3 Likes

Oh yes, freeborn. You say “not now”. The war for final liberation shouldn’t happen now, if ever.

Now is where they live. Constantly in the now, teetering on the edge between hope and surrender of their very spirits and mind. What do you think they hear then, from your words? They hear “not now, thus not ever, because there’s only ever the now and tomorrow is a world beyond reach in these chains”.

You may think you’re arguing for something else, but outside of your hopeful dreams and wishful fantasies, in their reality… it’s an argument for abandonment.

1 Like

It seems to me that a vicious attack on your countrywoman for “abandonment” and “not doing enough” is a rather foolish way of going about things. I don’t particularly see you doing much more than decrying others on these forums for their inability.

In fact, your whole attitude starts to feel rather hypocritical after a while. Especially when I consider a certain conversation held recently in which you very firmly denied your ability to lead by example Mizhara.

If these enslaved brothers and sisters of ours are in such desperate need of rescue, and everyone around you so horribly ineffective at saving them, why aren’t you leading the charge? Or at the very least, why are you not attempting to inspire and encourage others instead of browbeating them?

2 Likes

Lead, not ‘lead by example’. If you’re going to quote something out of context, you should at least get the quote right. I know I’m no leader. It requires people skills, which requires the capacity to kiss arse and pretend you don’t loathe them. I am very well aware that this is something I don’t have in my toolkit. In any organizational chart, the top is not where I belong. It’d be disastrous.

When it comes to ‘leading by example’, that’s an entirely different thing. When I’m in the pod, I’m at war with their loyalists and funding the Network’s various citadel waypoints. When I’m outside of the pod… well, that’s not exactly something to blast on open channels, as there’s far more lives than mine and my crew in play. I can pretty much guarantee that this activity alongside Sarz’namarr is going to require most of my time for at least yet another month.

Sarz’namarr recently released another album, and going on another tour, which to no one’s surprise is aimed directly at the Empire’s faithful and those who are on the fence. If I dive through the inbox, I’m pretty sure the PR department wants me to license more articles for IGS use on that subject.

What exactly do you then consider ‘attempting to inspire and encourage’? Kissing the ass of appeasers? Encourage them on the path where all I see is the guaranteed eradication of our people?

Nah, I’m afraid those barbed needles will find no purpose in my skin, especially not from someone with your background. I have only once in my capsuleer career ceased to do my job and duty, and that was when the clan imposed… consequences and other duties on me. My failures are many and severe, but lack of effort for my people has never been one of them.

1 Like

Encourage them to come around to your way of thinking of course. Show them why you’re right. Persuade them. But I suppose it’s much easier to just hammer and belittle them for their indifference and cowardice and make them hate you.

Your vitriol is not a benefit to your cause. You drive away those who might help you, and in doing so you aid the very people you claim to fight.

In simple terms, it’s quite possible to show passion without being a twat.

I didn’t realise your clan sent you off to join Coreli.

2 Likes

Heh. Heheheheh. That barb’s not gonna work, either.

1 Like

I was being serious.

2 Likes

So was I. But then, I tried it once, two years and change, ago.

1 Like

image

:eyes:

6 Likes

Who would that be? Teinyhr? She’s made her stance very clear, and more importantly she’s the one who came in brandishing vitriol. Me responding in kind should hardly be surprising, and turning her to my way of thinking is neither feasible nor the goal. This thread, others, they’re not for convincing any of those voicing their stance of anything. They get to make up their own minds, and most already have anyway. What is important is that the views are voiced, and publicly so. I offer no conversion, no ingratiating, no honeyed words spoken through a glassy smile. All I offer is my view, my voice, my stance. If this resonates with someone, then so be it. If it doesn’t, then so be it. That is entirely up to anyone and everyone who reads these boards. If they’re turned away by harsh words or justified anger, then what use could they possibly be to me or my people at this point? If they’d be turned my way through false smiles and forked tongues, would you want such people?

Me being a right ■■■■ is not a matter of ‘passion’. It’s merely a function of finite amounts of patience vs endless betrayal of those still in chains.

I’d make a joke about who’s data centers are storing the data I gained, but it’d be somewhat facile given those are just back-ups of back-ups and the clan itself merely accepted the project, rather than initiate it.

1 Like

I am curious as to why you seem to feel the only alternative to outright aggression is lies and subterfuge? You’ve made several statements in that vein and the use of language such as “ingratiating” and “honeyed words” seems to indicate much the same. Is it so difficult to speak your mind plainly, and without violence in your tone?

If all you have are men and women of violence, all you shall ever find is violence.

Then I eagerly await the day your patience runs out. As, I imagine, do those in chains.

2 Likes

What I was alluding to initially, was that if as you said:

Then those who would happen to live in the Republic, and who are not part of the Tribes, would not be represented within the Republic. As such, the Republic as it exists as a government and a state is thoroughly intertwined with the ethnic, tribal, cultural and civilizational identity of being Minmatar. The identity of being Minmatar is inseparable from the powers and responsibility of the government of the Republic.

The question then becomes, can someone live in the Republic and be afforded the exact same treatment, rights, and representation if they are not Minmatar and thus part of a Tribe, compared to a Minmatar who is part of a Tribe when as you have said, the primary responsibility of the Republic is to represent the Tribes?

Those who live in the Republic who are not members of any of the Tribes…

a)are not a part of the structure of any of the Tribes who have voices on the Tribal Council—the Tribal Council being, perforce, a Council of the Tribes. They do have consideration in Parliament, though not formal representation, because…

b)they’re not citizens of the Republic. Being a citizen requires being taken into one of the Tribes. For liberated slaves, this is usually done based on genetic markers. For those seeking to join one of our families, it’s handled at the Clan/family level. And that is because the Republic exists (especially now) as a union between the Tribes. While the Republic Government does have some territory and facilities (and, obviously, the oversight of overlapping Tribal territories—which is pretty much all of them, I mean, it’s not like there are Sebiestor worlds and Brutor worlds like the way the Starkmanir had it in the old Empire. Rather, we live side-by-side in some places, and segregate by Clan in others… it gets a little complex, but you’re more likely to find Clan territories dirtside, obviously, and the largest cities are usually mixed-Tribe and so Republic-administered and… like I said, complicated), the Republic as a political entity is comprised of smaller political entites (the Tribes), which retain their own sovereign legal status.

In theory, a Tribe could grant citizenship status to anyone they liked, regardless of ethnicity or culture. The Republic itself makes no distinction between (for example) a Sebiestor who is ethnically Sebiestor, and one who is ethnically Caldari. Strictly speaking, my cousins in the State (my great uncle emigrated decades ago and went local, and some years later my uncle followed suit seeking employment with him) could claim Tribal citizenship through the Clan if they chose to, and met our requirements. So far as I know, none of them have.

Edit to add/clarify/illustrate: Let’s say you’ve got a bunch of slaves taken by the Angels. Among them is an orphaned(? he has no idea) kid, maybe five or six, who’s a real scrapper. Doesn’t ever give in. Keeps trying to escape, keeps trying to fight his captors, etc. And yes, I’m purposefully making this stereotypical, because it’s meant to be illustrative. So the holding facility gets raided by a bunch of liberators from the Brutor Tribe. They might take that kid in, make him part of their Tribe, teach him their ways, etc etc… even though he’s a Deteis.

Ethnicity isn’t the determinate you seem to want to make it.

Otherwise, resident aliens are, well, resident aliens. Tell me: what representation do resident aliens (ie: non-citizens) have in the Federation Senate?

1 Like

The whole point you initially responded to with this, was my saying that for trillions of people within the Federation, they have a vested interest in maintaining and defending the Federation because they are not genetically or ethnically (sharing a common national cultural tradition) Minmatar, Caldari, or Amarr.

I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say with things like:

Then point out the ethnic determinants at least as it applies to the Republic such as:

Which are part of the ethnicity (common culture, identity, traditions) of being Minmatar. If I’m honest, it seems like you’re reading connotations of race into the term ethnicity, when I’m not – I’m using the term ethnicity as it’s defined as such:

the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

As, I’d say the Minmatar Republic has a unique ethnicity of being Minmatar, and by your own admission, those who are not part of that ethnic identity cannot be a citizen of the Republic insofar as they are not a member of a Minmatar Tribe.

Are you trying to deny that the Minmatar Republic has a unique ethnic identity of being Minmatar expressed by a shared common culture, traditions, and governance by pointing out the manner in which they do in fact in exist?

My Clan has points of commonality in our traditions with Mizhara’s Clan. Both, for example, hold the traditional Sebiestor beliefs of Ohnesh and Andesh. Both hold to traditions of surviving and thriving in hostile environments where we’ve had to carve out our own places of shelter and succor.

Despite that, though, our Clans are extremely different. Her Clan’s structure is built around (four, I think?) circles of what your role is in the Clan. My Clan’s structure is built around family hierarchies determined by an extended tree of descent and relation that frankly, I don’t fully understand half the time.

Her people hail from the frozen north, and for them, surviving and thriving means being able to work up from ‘All I have is a rock’ to securing food, shelter, and warmth from the natural environment. That’s not to say they’re a bunch of primitives, only that there are survival skills for that environment that they make a point of retaining.

Mine are spacers. Every last one of us. I’ve set foot on planets maybe half a dozen times, and only one of those was before I became a capsuleer. There are literally no survival skills that will let us get shot out an airlock in a set of warm clothes and manage to get by on what we can find floating out in space. For us, surviving and thriving means being able to cobble together needed technological systems from sketchy, sometimes inferior, often misused, and occasionally even dangerous components.

Elmund Egivand’s people come from a backwater, low-resource world where natural survival skills and technical skills overlap, with a heavy dose of ‘how to not die in a criminal underworld, cuz it’s the world we got’.

Each of us has different holidays. For example, I’m pretty sure only my Clan celebrates what we call ‘Industrial Accident Day’. It’s the last Thursday of October and is basically a commemoration of ‘holy crap, be careful’. If you’ve actually had some kind of accident in the last few years, you’re more likely to go whole hog and do the ‘engine oil in your hair and cut half of it off’ thing as a kind of mea culpa, but we all give a nod to the tradition. (For those who remember, I got myself hurt working on the atmospheric control system of my Hel a year or so ago, so last year [and probably this one and next] I did the whole deal.) I’m pretty sure no other Clan celebrates that day as a holiday of ‘play safe with the heavy machinery’.

But we’re all Sebiestor. And we’re all Matari, even if the other Tribes don’t even necessarily have the same core spiritual beliefs we do.

My point is this: I don’t think there is a single ‘Minmatar’ ethnicity any more than I think there’s a single ‘Federation’ ethnicity. I could point to the Federation’s democratic system and say ‘see? You all have a shared common culture and tradition of democratic government!’ But I don’t.

It’s not a shared common culture and traditions, it’s a complex, tangled weave of a number of clashing cultures and traditions, all bound to one another by shared values, goals, and perspective, as well as ancient ties that trace each of those cultures back to the same homeworld.

But viewing it as some monolithic ‘ur-culture’ would be like buying into the ‘Terra’ hypothesis and claiming everyone in New Eden is really one culture from one homeworld, we’re just expressions of different parts of that culture, from different parts of that homeworld, magnified and distorted by time… including the Jove, Drifters, and these Triglavian chuckleheads.

3 Likes

Well, slave-child, I did say I will not let you dictate this discussion just because you have a trauma we should respect. No, Mizhara, ■■■■ you.
I don’t mind that you call me a freeborn. No. What I mind is that you have the ■■■■■■■ gall spit on my ancestors, your ancestors, all the “freeborn”, by saying that we betrayed our kin. That we betray them infinitely even now. By being free. Without the free Minmatar, there would be no one fighting for their freedom. Certainly not you - there would not have been a free Minmatar to rescue you. Not the Gallente. No one.

But you find it preferable to spread venom around you, you find it preferable to disrespect everyone not predisposed with your trauma.

Make no mistake, people are fighting. People are working for the freedom of Amarrian slaves as we speak. I’ve explained this to you before. But you keep saying that anyone who is not willing to act now is abandoning their kin. That includes you, or do you find your hobby band more important than the suffering our kin? See, the problem with your rhetoric is that if you yourself do not devote every last nanosecond of your existence on fighting the Amarr and securing the freedom of our kin in chains, you betray them too. You will not admit this, I’m sure. You praise the water droplet that you are, and dismiss the rest of the ocean for not doing anything.
You are nothing but a self serving holier-than-thou who pretends to be the only one who cares.

I’m sure you will find witty responses to everything I’ve said here, have fun typing them out.
I honestly don’t care, I consider you the enemy of our enslaved kin, for sowing distrust, for spitting on the work of anyone who has come before or after you, for being a stain that spreads - I see you’ve claimed Arrendis already.

Well, quite evidently, miracles do happen - we’ve witnessed several in our lifetime alone - and evidently baseliner sociologist and psychological trauma experts can be so, very, wrong. So don’t come citing this ■■■■■■■■ at me as if it means something.

1 Like

So… 17th earlier, it was ‘fascinating math’, and you were speaking of optimism and hope being stronger than resentment. Then, when I point out it’s not just resentment that that hope is competing with, you don’t address that competition, you just back up, throw that entire line of discussion away, and go to attack the idea that people who study how these things usually work think… we displayed unusual strength and resilience?

Really? That’s what you wanna pivot to attack? You’d rather say ‘your experts who think we did really well are MORONS!’ instead of looking at all of the things, including a different ‘way out’ that your scenario has to compete with?

That’s a really weird tactic, you know?

(I mean, literally, you already responded to that specific quoted bit once before, in a vastly different way.)

1 Like

Well, what can I say, that the experts that I’ve spoken to do not agree? You would just keep telling me that they’re wrong and we’d be going back and forth for the next week. No thanks. I opted not to bow down after some thinking.

1 Like

By actively arguing against the only possible salvation our people might have a chance for.

Tsk. Conflating different arguments into something entirely different isn’t a very nice thing to do now, is it? I don’t ‘disrespect everyone’, only you and yours, who hem, haw and cower before what must be done if our people are to stand any chance at all. You still haven’t provided even the slightest alternative, yet insist one must exist, and when that’s pointed out you froth and foam about ‘disrespect’. This should earn you any?

Droplets aren’t going to erode this mountain. They won’t wash it away, before the rockslide finally buries all. Actively working against unleashing the torrent we have, only serves to hasten our end. Of course a few individuals here and there tries to do what little can be done, but it will never be enough until we all rise up and go to war. And the voices of you and yours are trying so very hard to prevent that.

They are. By working against the only hope they and we have, they’re in effect abandoning them.

The hobby band that has an ever-growing demographic of my kind? A demographic who’s influence is vastly greater than any of ours is? The one that is politically active? I can assure you, outside of my rest cycles there’s very few minutes of my day that isn’t spent working for my people, freed, freeborn or enslaved.

It’s odd how you seem to try to make me out to be the ‘unique droplet’ vs an ‘ocean’. You should be quite aware this is hardly the case. Sure, I’m one of the few capsuleers arguing for this, but thinking I’m somehow alone, or even anywhere the summit of the mountain of people with the exact same views would be ridiculous. No, Teinyhr, you are indeed so very wrong about my views. I’m not praising ‘me’. I detest a certain group of people, that is all.

You are getting very angry for someone who came in here on the attack, aimed for specific people. Perhaps you weren’t expecting return fire?

Sowing distrust? There was no trust to begin with. What I sow is criticism and a little bit of discord. I speak up for my people, who need to know that someone still remembers, both among capsuleers and baseliners. I let them, you and everyone else who might hear these words know that there is still reason to hope. The willingness to reach into the fire to grasp their outstretched hands is still not quite dead.

… as for Arrendis, I am honestly unsure what her game is. I don’t know if you’re aware, but we are hardly on speaking terms. If she has truly come around to anything similar to my thinking, I highly doubt it’s to my credit, as we’re largely antagonistic in nature.

Keep betting on miracles, and sooner or later you’ll roll snake eyes. No biggie, the stakes are merely all of our people.

1 Like

Wow. So much for optimism, huh?

No, I’m actually more likely to say that there’s clearly a wide range of expert opinion on the matter, and that if we got your experts and my experts together, they’d probably find a whole lot of commonality between their opinions. In fact, most of the differences likely arise not from them, but from us: how we phrase our questions can produce responses with emphasis on different aspects of those responses. Then, because we’re filtering those responses through our own brains and our own conscious and subconscious biases, we come away with even more divergent impressions of things.

Wait, I’m sorry, was I not supposed to be a reasonable individual who acknowledges that experts are experts for a reason, but instead irrationally digs in my heels more and more to argue from a deeply-seated position of emotional investment?

I don’t think that’d be helpful here. Do you? I mean, you’re not doing that, right?

1 Like