The more 3rd party tools that are integrated the more new players will stay

[Tl-lOR_Gods]

After having helped many new players getting into the game for a number of years now I can say that
from my experience, most new players don’t know about all of the handy and essential 3rd party tools that veteran eve players use on a daily basis.
If you were to ask most veterans if they would play the game without dotlan, zkillboard, tripwire, Eveworkbench, or other essential tools, many of them would probably say no.

This should tell you something about how most new players are feeling about the game right now that don’t know about all of the different 3rd party tools that EVE has to offer and will probably never know about them because they will leave before they know.
I think that if you took a survey of how much people knew about 3rd party tools based on how old their characters is you’d find that this is something most people get into after the vast majority of new players have left the game.

I, therefore, think it should be an essential long term plan for CCP to try and integrate as many of these tools as possible into the game as I think this would massively improve player retention.
I know that there are probably people at CCP that think this would be a huge undertaking but you also have to remember that most of the developers of these tools would happily help CCP with the work that needs to get done to get something like Zkillboard or dotlan, evepraisal, integrated into the game and they would most likely do this work for free.

CCP just announced that they wanted to give some love to the content creators with the partnership program and I now think it’s time to give some real love to the developers that built the 3rd party platforms that are essential to playing this awesome game.

If you have more suggestions on this topic please feel free to leave a comment

[Nevyn_Auscent]

If CCP officially integrate a 3rd party application two major things happen.

1. CCP become responsible for any innacuracies or issues in the product.
2. No one else can feasibly develop a competing third party app, because it wouldn’t be CCP endorsed.

You then further have issues around content ownership, what happens if the developer stops supporting the product (see 2 above for why this issue would be magnified from current level), and about how you select which of several 3rd party products which do the same or similar things gets selected for official integration.

In short, this is a bad idea.

[Mkikaden_Tiragen]

Copying my responses from the other thread for those who only see this one:

@Mkikaden_Tiragen

Okay, you are making a significant logical leap from ‘players do not know about tools’ to ‘if players knew about the tools from day 1, they would be more likely to stay’. The tools being in-game might make a difference for a tiny percentage of players who would otherwise leave - but most players who leave do so because EVE wasn’t the game for them in the first place.

Again, simply putting the tools in the game doesn’t make them more functionally usable to players - not only do you have to find them in the already large menu of tools, you also have to explain what the tool is and how to use it (and can I tell you how many vets I have spoken to who didn’t know about the Compare tool and how to use it?). Unless each and every tool is given an in-game tutorial, the tools are just as inaccessible to a new player in-game as via a third party site. The only argument for in-game is not having to open up a website or app separate from EVE to run them - but that is countered by app developers not being locked into CCP’s development cycle and thus being free to iterate on their work as needed instead of only when CCP budgets for QoL improvements.

@Mkikaden_Tiragen

@Tl-lOR_Gods

So for new players, not having easy access to 20-40% of the total gameplay experience is of course going to make a lot of them leave.

Except putting the tools in the game doesn’t make them easier to use - it only maybe makes them more likely to be stumbled upon. The number one way to improve the new player retention rate among those who are actually interested in EVE is to improve the NPE itself and do a better job of explaining core game mechanics, followed closely by do a better job connecting players socially to others who are interested in helping them learn and grow in EVE.

Neither of those requires moving the tools inside of EVE - both are focused on improving communication of information to new players. Whether the tools are inside the game or not is irrelevant to disclosing the existence of supportive content and helping new players engage with it.

@Tl-lOR_Gods

I’m not talking about ease of use.

I am talking about ease of access. In my experience, the vast majority of new players never get to experience these 3rd party tools because they leave before they get a chance to.

@Mkikaden_Tiragen

Except simply accessing a tool doesn’t improve anyone’s gameplay experience. Okay, so there is a menu item for viewing killmails - what does it do? Why is it relevant? How do you use it, and what are the pros and cons of its data set? Also, how do players control whether their killmails are accessible to others? Does it opt in by default, or is it locked down and you have to edit permissions to make your killmails accessible?

How does having it in-game answer any of those questions, or help a player use it?

Once you put the tools inside the game, CCP has to maintain them, create and maintain instruction materials for them, and update them alongside all the other code maintenance that goes into every release. Whereas when they are out of the game, not only can they not possibly break other components of EVE, they can be independently updated and improved upon without waiting for CCP to decide to spend money on a tiny aspect of their game engine. Just look at the fitting tool that is already in EVE - it’s 4 years old and has been hardly touched.

I would much rather the tools remain outside EVE where they can continue to be developed, than get shoehorned into EVE and left to languish.

But I do agree that the existence of useful out-of-game content needs to be better promoted during the NPE - including these forums, which tons of players are utterly unaware of.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

@Tl-lOR_Gods

CCP just announced that they wanted to give some love to the content creators with the partnership program and I now think it’s time to give some real love to the developers that built the 3rd party platforms that are essential to playing this awesome game.

CCP is giving love to them. Plus they’ve said it themselves somewhere on here, they love the 3rd party tools because they didn’t want to implement all that stuff in the game, the game is complex enough as it is without adding all the stuff the 3rd party devs have added. There’s plenty of resources in the New Citizen category of the forums that point to the 3rd party tools, plus EVE Uni has that info as well.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

@Tl-lOR_Gods

If you were to ask most veterans if they would play the game without dotlan, zkillboard, tripwire, Eveworkbench, or other essential tools, many of them would probably say no.

Not only would I keep playing, but I would offer large isk bounties for 3rd party devs to create or update free, open source versions of a fitting tool, character manager, killboard, and eve gatecamp checker. And I’m sure many people would contribute funds as well. Which reminds me, it’s probably time for me to do another round of donations to the guys that create my favorite tools.

@Tl-lOR_Gods

I, therefore, think it should be an essential long term plan for CCP to try and integrate as many of these tools as possible into the game as I think this would massively improve player retention.

It is a huge assumption to assume that players leave because they don’t know about more robust 3rd party tools. Not only am I sure that other issues play a much, much larger role in player retention, but I’m positive that you can make a better case that players leave because they didn’t know about all the amazing and helpful youtube channels, streams, and blogs that are dropping knowledge bombs and good advice.

Moreover, many newbros don’t even make use of the tools that we do have in-game (such as the in-game map’s ability to display various information and D-scan). They already have enough to figure out. Don’t need to throw even more advanced ■■■■ at them from the get go. The in-game ship fitting tool is easy to find and use. And when they outgrow it, they’ll have a more powerful, 3rd party alternative to turn to.

I mean, what you’re proposing is kind of like the video game equivalent of saying elementary school kids are dropping out of school in South Sudan because they don’t have access to graphing calculators.

[Tl-lOR_Gods]

Yes, but making improvements to the game is an investment that if done right pays off. Take the in game fitting tool for example. Many of the new features of the fitting tool are features taken directly from Pyfa. Now, I don’t think the maintenance of these features is a huge burden for CCP when the code has been written and everything is done.
But what effect did it have on the game? Well, I’ve seen CCP’ers talk about so many new players that struggled with the old fitting tool since they got stuck, being annoyed and quitting because of it so there is no doubt in my mind that making the fitting tool simpler with more features increase new player retention.
You have to remember. All of the in game features is especially important for new players because this is for the most part all they know.
This is also why CCP has pulled so many resources into improving pain points for new players. This journey of course, starts with the features that players encounter first but shouldn’t of course be limited to more advanced features that add to a player’s experience and keeps them engaged.

In short, the more good features you make easily accessible in-game, the more new players will stay.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

The game is full of complexities, all this stuff you are suggesting will make it worse not better. Giving a nod to Eve uni in the NPE for 3rd party tools, and keeping those tools out of CCPs hands is a good thing

[Tl-lOR_Gods]

Yes, and unnecessary complexities that aren’t fun is why people leave EVE. So, the more good features that you can put into the game the more player will stay.
Take very simple change for example. The map.
The current map both the old and the new in-game version is WAY to complex for new players to grasp. This is why if you go into “Rookie help” where I often hang out players often ask about where stuff is, how they get to certain areas and that they feel that they lack a clear overview of everything.

The main reason why people use Dotlan is because it is a very simple and clear overview of all systems and regions so that you can easily navigate throughout New Eden. If this map mode were to be implemented into the game I think that would help new players substantially since, if that map is In-game it will be the first thing they come across and the earlier you can get a player to interact with a good and simple feature the longer they will stay.

[Mkikaden_Tiragen]

Do you have any concept of how hard it would be to create DOTLAN inside the EVE client? I’ll give you a hint: it would not be fast, nor simple. This (CCP) is the company that had to remove the in-game browser because they couldn’t keep it secure or efficient - and you want them to figure out how to take the work of other developers, who are not restricted to EVE’s codebase for coding language options, and re-create it all inside the game engine?

Some things are best done independently from the game, as it provides enhanced flexibility around coding. A lot of the third party tools fall into this category.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Tl-lOR_Gods

Take the in game fitting tool for example. Many of the new features of the fitting tool are features taken directly from Pyfa.

Thank you for so perfectly making my point here.
You say they were taken from pyfa, but were they?
Or were they taken from EVEHQ, or I believe EVEMon also has a fitting tool, or one of the fitting websites?
Why should pyfa be made the official CCP supported fitting tool ahead of all the others. And you still haven’t answered what happens when Pyfa fails to update, it’s Dev quits EVE, or any of the other problems mentioned.

[Tl-lOR_Gods]

If you look at everything from a “can’t be done” perspective nothing is ever possible you know.

[Mkikaden_Tiragen]

Bull. I didn’t say it cannot be done. I said it isn’t practical to do it within EVE’s game client, as the benefit of being in-game has not been sufficiently demonstrated to make that a worthwhile investment.

DOTLAN works beautifully in a browser. It is advertised to players by newbro corporations. It has support documentation explaining the basics of the system, and has a developer willing to engage with players to answer questions.

Name one system within EVE that CCP has done the same for. I’ll wait while you re-run the tutorial and career agent missions. Let me know what CCP has actually taken the time to provide any instructions for beyond ‘click this button to open this menu’ - and we all know that CCP devs only talk to players during releases and the very rare event.

I am pretty sure the only time you will find this to be the case is when it comes to ship interactions (fitting, using modules) - not even probe scanning is explained even though it is part of the Career Agent missions.