The real reasons player population is declining

Hold on, first of all you have to present or link to data that shows player population is declining.

Alternatively, you could address @Black_Pedro specifically, after he posted data eight days ago purporting to show that player population decline or attrition is either uncertain at best or non-existent at worst. Is he wrong ?

More generally, why are we still having this conversation - 966 posts in - when even that fundamental fact of whether player decline is real does not yet appear to have been either proven or otherwise agreed on?

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Why would I need to do that?
The question is not mine, its OPs and topic of thread.

If he wants to answer that it is not declining, then he can do so, and explain the ā€œreal reasonsā€ why it is not doing so.


Topic of thread and OPs question was not ā€œis Salvos cluelessā€.

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A person who has not deigned to bless us with his presence since. So, why are we collectively still responding to someone who is clearly not listening, 969 post later (and counting) ?

A topic that has not been proven to be true ? So, again, why are we discussing ā€œdeclineā€ when no one appears to know whether there is one or not ?

[Listen doll, I agree that this thread is absolutely not about you. My point though is, without evidence, this thread appears to be about absolutely nothing at all.]

We dont know that he isnt lurking.
Nor does it matter, as the topic is what it is, regardless of OPs involvement in it after making it.

Why not? You can either agree or disagree, and back it up.

Doll?

Tell that to GP, whomā€™s posts have been exclusively about me.

Strange you react this way, when all I did was ask GP the same question as is the topic/OP of this thread.

As much as I liked next genā€¦the dark side of ds9 was what attracted me to it. Ds9 didnā€™t pretend the universe was a nice and kind placeā€¦it admitted that it was not, and that made it more real

Exactly !

Nine. Hundred. And Sixty-Nine. Posts later. You asked the exact same question. At the same time, you are choosing to ignore a previous post - which was addressed to you - showing data that suggests there may not be a decline. Why; why are you continuing to debate ? What position do you hold; is there or is there not a decline ?

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All I did was ask the question relevant to topic.
Till now, his posts have only been about calling me clueless.

My position is PCU has stabilised, as of this moment.

What constitutes the ā€œreal reasonsā€ for that stabilization, I can only speculate.

You can now ask GP the same question you asked me above.


Why did you call me ā€œdollā€?
What was that supposed to mean?

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[Not sure how I got cast here in the role as ā€œMotherā€. ]

Mr Chicken ā€¦ if you would be so kind ā€¦ do you have a position on whether there is or is not a player decline in EvE Online ?

For the record, Mr Rhoska is of the opinion that

In addition, Mr Pedro is also of the opinion that:

Are you in a position to tell us if you agree / disagree with either or both, and perhaps why ?

[A colloquialism. Like ā€¦ ā€œhey buddy ā€¦ mate ā€¦ dude ā€¦ eseā€. Wouldnā€™t read any thing into it. ]

Iā€™m in agreement with Pedro, as to stagnation/stabilization.
Neither of us has an explanation of the ā€œreal reasonsā€ for/behind that.

Iā€™m a 37yr old male.
I dunno where you live, or what kind of behavior/culture you have in your social circles, but here in Finland calling an adult male a ā€œdollā€ would be considered an insult.

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[And yet it is something - together with a myriad of other variations - that adult males call women the world over. Every day. And think nothing of it.

Do not know what non-threatening terms Finnish women might use in return eg when greeting a male customer in a small village shop. But, you must make of it as you choose. Just like playing EvE, or (not) communicating on the forums, as the case may be. ]

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So you colloquially call women ā€œdollsā€ then, and think nothing of it?
Did you think I was female?

In what country are you doing this?

(Here in Finland calling adults of either sex a ā€œdollā€ is considered insulting.)

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I didnā€™t read the thread and only have gone halfway through the OPā€™s initial post. There is one clear mistake here and thatā€™s all there is to say for me.

The game is not losing its population.

It remains stable and CCP is doing a good job at it, too. That it once peaked and that it now has a few less players is quite normal. Itā€™s simply the inertia the game had developed for being new at the time and it kept attracting more and more players. Eventually did the hype end and what we are seeing now is a stable population. New things always created more attraction than old things and it is no different with games.

And, OP, regarding the ā€œsnipe remarksā€ and for us to ā€œshoveā€ them, well, I guess my ass is too tight for it, and your complaints are just dumb rubbish to me.

Not empty quoting.

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Mr Rhoska it is.

Come buy the Salvos Rhoska Doll now!

It comes with a string attached to itĀ“s back and if you pull on the string, he will repeat the same nonsense over and over again.

(I think that is a rather fitting image)

On the topic itself: (Warning this will be a long one)

While it seems like the numbers are actually quite stable now, there used to be quite the decline. I have played the game daily from 2003 to around 2012 myself. And while I still hold the game in good memory, CCP over the years made too many changes to the game that actually reduced the amount of interactions between players, with the goal of either helping the ā€œlittle guysā€ or simply changes to make life more convenient.

When I started playing the game back in 2003 the game was really ruthless to the unprepared, lazy and egoistic people.

1. Mining

Back then a few friends from other games convinced me to start playing the game. So I went and got myself a good old boxed version of the game, created a character and met with my friends. We started out with a group of around 20 people and were mostly mining. Since most of us had no alts this meant: Working as team was rather important to mine decent amount of ore. There were no special mining ships, just our good old t1 frigs, cruisers, battleships and industrials. So most of us were sucking on roids, and spitting out cans for our dedicated hauler guy(s) to pick up. Since you had to empty your cargo almost after every cycle, you actually had to constantly pay attention to the game.

While the actual mechanic of mining has not changed since then, back then it was fun to just mine and interact with people in a team. In todays EvE mining for the most part is a solo activity, thanks to orcas/rorquals and mining barges. Especially for people with just a single account it has become an activity which does not really require teamwork (no haulers needed and no jetcanning required thanks to huge cargoholds).

On top of that it made running multiple accounts for mining a lot easier. The people running whole fleets of mining ships back then were really rare, as I can only imagine what a hell it would have been back then to run around with something like 20 mining apocs, when each of them had to jettison the cargo every few seconds, as you did not even have enough cargo space for a single cycle on all your mining lasers.

Mining pretty much has become a "semi-afk activity which does not require much attention or interaction between players -> in my opinion that made mining more convienient in regards to the input required for the same result, but it also made it a lot more boring.

The change of certain game mechanics, that could be used to force interaction on other people.

2. Changes to cime watch

(At least to a small degree, with the addition mining barges and orcas, canflipping other miners for example was bound to die anyway)

3. Introduction of jump freighters

Those damn things surely made it more convenient to transport stuff from high sec into lowsec / 0.0, but at the same time again teamwork took a big hit with their introduction. As well as player versus player interaction has been nerfed a lot!

Sure, we all did moan when we had to escort a freighter convoy into deep 0.0, but it still was something we had to do as a team. An important task, other than just sitting around waiting for the next big battle to happen or to get blueballed.

On the other hand it also meant, that you had options to actually block enemy supply lines.

Their introduction in my opinion also was a huge nerf to life as low sec pirate. There is no need to ever actually fly through low sec. Need anything? Just give a shopping list to one of the JF pilots in your alliance or assign a contract to him) -> less traffic in low sec, no more incentive for alliances to keep the supply lines clear and frequently break up gate camps. -> less options for encounters between players.

4. Jump fatique

People kept complaining about the ā€œbig boysā€™ā€ ability to to move their fleets around the map in a matter of minutes. While that was only possible for alliances that were well prepared and organsid. It was not like you could just move a capital fleet around all of nullsec without having a large number of people with dedicated cyno alts. Sure it was harsh on the little people, that it was acually a much bigger risk to undock your capital ships without support. But it allowed people to get into some quick action a lot faster. Even if it was just a quick carrier gank and not actually a good fight. Still better than sitting around doing nothing.

That situation certainly was not helped by the fact, that shortly before itĀ“s introduction PL stopped working as mercs and started builing up their own coalition and renter empire. (Looking back at things now, I could imagine someone in the leadership knew about the introduction of jump fatique before it was anounced). I remember that back then I asked someone why we donĀ“t keep going is mercs and started installing renters and have gotten the reply that there was no other option. And that certainly was right, PL could not have kept playing the way they did back then, PL needed to change the playstyle, because the old one was impossible to maintain with these changes.

Now while this is just speculation on my part: If my suspicion is right, CCP`s plan to introduce jump fatique and certain people knowing about it, caused a big shift in 0.0 towards tighter and larger coalitions, quite simply because the mechanic makes it impossible to maintain a pretty much nomadic lifestyle and at the same time making sure you have a steady income to keep your SRPs, and super programms running.

I am not saying renters did not exist before, but with that change the whole thing has been taken to a whole new level.

To sum up point 4:
-> less chances to get a quick kill
-> no short term deployments
-> possibly did itĀ“s part to create the blue donut (specualtion)
-> big impact on a more nomadic lifestyle
ā€“> less fun

5. Removal tricks like the good old lofty and awoxing (at least in high sec)

Some people will argue that those things just had to go, but for they were actual fun elements of the game. It was more important to build up a group you can actually trust (even in high sec) and often could also bring people closer together. Even non PvP High-Sec corps could be put to a test with those things:

If you someone in your corp became a victim of those things it was a good chance to actually show your members that being in the corp actually means something. It was a chance to support the victim either financially (if needed) or to get revenge on the person who did the killing. For some people this could actually even have been an incentive to actually start doing something other than just grinding.

While I could keep going, I everyone should see by now where I am going with this so, let me get to my conclusion, which certainly works as TLDR as well.

These changes have certain things in common: These changes and additions reduced the need to work as a team, reduced the options to create player driven content. They made the game less interesting

With the direction EvE has taken, people will get less attached to their corps as they donĀ“t have to rely on each other as much as they used to. Tight bonds between players however are something that will also get you attached to the game and people who have formed these kinds of bonds will stay in the game a lot longer than the ones who havenĀ“t.

For the early years of the game, CCP basically forced us to forge those bonds, which is why a lot of us have stayed in the game for such a long time and why for many years, even though the number of new players coming in was rather low, the population did steadily rise. This trend stopped when ccp started to take the game into a different direction, as described above.

DISCLAIMER: This is just my personal theory, based on my own experience of why I got bored of the game (as did many people I knew to be real no lifers, who also pretty much quit in the same time period as myself).

edit: I hate my keyboard!

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Nah, thats more like the alt you just posted with having its strings pulled.
Didnt bother reading the rest.

DonĀ“t worry, I knew you would get triggered by that little joke and that you would ignore the rest of the post. Which is fine to me, that way I can at least be sure that I donĀ“t have to deal with one of your tantrums :P.

And that comeback, omgā€¦ you really hurt my feelings with that one!

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Sorry, Mr.Salesman alt out of nowhere.
But you cant sell dolls of me, without paying me too.
As to your wall of text, who cares.

I suppose the people who actually are interested in having a discussion about the topic do.

Sadly you donĀ“t, which of course is the only thing that matters, right?

p.s.: If anything I would have to pay CCP if I was selling dolls of your chracter.

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