To end The War

[Diana_Kim]

@Anabella_Rella

So when the hell are YOU leaving?

As soon as I cleanse the universe from types like you.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

So you intend to ‘dismantle the criminal regime’ that it’s own citizens want… by force and make them follow some other form of government…
Uh what?
That makes you the criminal, not them.

Also, you did call for genocide of Gallente citizens when you were raging over Caldari prime and the Shiigeru going down, and you called for the orbital bombardment.
Some of us don’t have the memory of a goldfish like you do where you can’t even remember what you posted yesterday and thus post a contradiction to it today. And we remember.

Also, we’d take your threats to ‘cleanse’ much more seriously if you actually you know, declared war on anyone who offended you and hunted them. Rather than sitting in your own little corner looking for easy targets in the pendulum war.

[Lasairiona_Raske]

Memory of a goldfish made me chuckle.

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

@Lasairiona_Raske

Memory of a goldfish made me chuckle

Goldfish1: Hey, that’s a nice Titan!
Goldfish 2: What’s a Titan?
Goldfish 1: No idea, why’d you ask?
Goldfish 2: Ask what?
Goldfish 1: Hey, that’s a nice Titan!
…

[Arrendis]

@Diana_Kim

My goal is to stop the war, to stop gallente invaders from attacking us or bringing their filth (as what they consider ‘culture’) to us, without giving them or letting them hold under their occupation even an iota of our lands, people, assets, or anything else that we have created, constructed or possess by other means, and without changing the way we live our lives inside our own territory even by any tiny insignificant mean.

If we achieve that with being declared ‘losers’, I am fine with that.

Yes, and my point is: you can’t. The State and the Federation have agreed that the war will not end. You want the war to end? The State doesn’t. The State wants the Gallente to keep invading/retaking/attempting to retake the warzone. The State wants the Federation to continue to destroy Caldari ships and kill Caldari crews.

If they didn’t, they could end this war in a second through CONCORD.

[Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt]

@Arrendis

If they didn’t, they could end this war in a second through CONCORD.

I can almost guarantee the only opposition to this in the Federation would be the big arms mega-corps and the Mannar senators. AKA, not a majority.

[Jehoshaphat_Ambraelle]

My goal is to destroy the Federation as a political entity

And then, just think, what would happen? Either the State takes control of the Federation, thus becoming the very oppressors that you so often rail against, OR the Amarr sweep in and enslave us all. Because, you know, dismantling the Federation and the Navy would leave the member states more or less defenseless against a full-scale invasion.

Your intention might not be genocide, but that doesn’t mean that your proposal won’t end up causing one.

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

You mean securing a necessary foothold for LIBERATING OUR STOLEN HOMEWORLD? Funny how our wonderful Gallente benefactors keep forgetting about the whole bombarding our civilian population from orbit, denying us our right to withdraw peacefully from the Federation and then their continuing attempts to destroy our culture and civilisation…

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

There’s no need to dismantle the Federation to end the war - a return to starting lines in Black Rise and Placid, a decent resolution to the Intaki homeworld situation that places the fate of that planet beyond question and then a return of Caldari Prime to the Caldari - that’s really all that’s necessary.

[Arrendis]

And, you know, either side’s government to actually want the war to end.

[Makoto_Priano]

You’ll notice that one Pieter Tuulinen is not one Diana Kim.

Tuulinen-haan is a Patriot, without a doubt, and a level-headed one who seeks the betterment of the Caldari without believing this necessitates the destruction of the Federation.

Kim is, well, Kim.

[Jehoshaphat_Ambraelle]

I thought those posts seemed odd. The portraits looked similar at a glance, so I assumed it was her

[Anabella_Rella]

@Pieter_Tuulinen

There’s no need to dismantle the Federation to end the war - a return to starting lines in Black Rise and Placid, a decent resolution to the Intaki homeworld situation that places the fate of that planet beyond question and then a return of Caldari Prime to the Caldari - that’s really all that’s necessary.

And just why should the Gallente allow a hostile armed enemy to live next door to them? Would the Caldari allow such a situation if roles were reversed?

Also, let’s remember that the Caldari were a founding member of the Federation and only wanted to break away after being caught building secret bases and colonies and refusing to share the profits with their Gallente partners. Only after being caught with their hand in the cookie jar did they demand, like petulant children, to be allowed to do as they wished (to “be Caldari”) and leave the Federation.

In short, today’s present mess was really started by the Caldari who now demand that the Federation roll over and play dead, acceding to all their demands without giving up anything in return.

[Veikitamo_Gesakaarin]

@Anabella_Rella

Also, let’s remember that the Caldari were a founding member of the Federation and only wanted to break away after being caught building secret bases and colonies and refusing to share the profits with their Gallente partners. Only after being caught with their hand in the cookie jar did they demand, like petulant children, to be allowed to do as they wished (to “be Caldari”) and leave the Federation.

The formation of the Caldari State was formed by Caldari corporations as states unto themselves. The Caldari corporations did not sign the Federal charter because only democratic states were recognized as legitimate political entities and not corporations. While Caldari democratic states did exist at the time (and still do) to sign the Federal charter the failure of the nascent Federation to recognize the self-determination of Caldari corporate colonies that had been developed for over five hundred years on their own.

So no, today’s present mess is the failure of the Gallente Federation to:

a) Recognize the sovereignty of Caldari corporate states;

b) Accept that other societies and cultures develop political systems considered to be in synch with their society and culture, of which corporate rule was in synch with Caldari society and culture;

c) That the development of the Caldari corporate system involved a generational investment of money, labour, and resources. Money, labour, and resources expended to create a purely Caldari polity.

The Federation was considered an illegitimate authority that did not recognize Caldari corporate sovereignty and by extension the hundreds of billions of their citizens that had lived under corporate rule for hundreds of years. Since the Megacorporations were not permitted to be represented politically in the Federation, then the only recourse was the path of self-determination.

A self-determination the Federation responded to with, at first, threats and then government sanctioned violence leading to war.

[Arrendis]

@Anabella_Rella

refusing to share the profits

Actually, the Federation Senate demanded they cede the colonies in their entirety, not ‘share the profit’. They demanded that private property not covered by any Federal laws be turned over, without any legal authority to do so other than ‘we want that thing you have’.

[Jehoshaphat_Ambraelle]

If the Federation finds out I cheated on my taxes, I stand to lose more than just the money I hid. The government might decide to repossess some or all of my possessions, or, if I were still planet-side, I could end up imprisoned. Which is of course why I do not cheat on my taxes. (The subjunctive (hypothetical) mood used here doesn’t translate well to Caldari)

That’s just for a single individual, mind you. What the Caldari megacorporations did was a lot bigger. Basically, the Senate had NO IDEA about these vast domains until someone managed to stumble across one of them and send word back to the Federation. Whatever your position, it really can’t look good to be secretly building an empire behind your ally’s back.

So with all this in mind, what is the Senate to do? They appear to have caught the megacorporations off-guard in a rebellious plot against the Federation. Quick action had to be taken to confront this perceived threat, and so the Senate made what was, given their knowledge at the time, a reasonable decision. They could’ve immediately mobilized the Navy to attack these militarized outposts, but instead sent a demand. One which could have been negotiable.

At this point, however, I must admit all reason was thrown out the proverbial airlock. But the demand itself was not unreasonable given the circumstances.

Also again, to all you non-Gallente out there, I do not cheat on my taxes. It’s a product of the translation software plus Gallente grammar.

[Valerie_Valate]

And yet is it not one of the Federation’s policies that privately owned colonies are encouraged? Rights of the individual and all that.

[Elmund_Egivand]

Private owners are still required to declare their ownership of said colonies and pay their taxes.

Unless they happen to be capsuleers, and the colonies are just resources exploitation outposts.

[Veikitamo_Gesakaarin]

@Jehoshaphat_Ambraelle

If the Federation finds out I cheated on my taxes, I stand to lose more than just the money I hid. The government might decide to repossess some or all of my possessions, or, if I were still planet-side, I could end up imprisoned. Which is of course why I do not cheat on my taxes. (The subjunctive (hypothetical) mood used here doesn’t translate well to Caldari)

That’s just for a single individual, mind you. What the Caldari megacorporations did was a lot bigger. Basically, the Senate had NO IDEA about these vast domains until someone managed to stumble across one of them and send word back to the Federation. Whatever your position, it really can’t look good to be secretly building an empire behind your ally’s back.

So with all this in mind, what is the Senate to do? They appear to have caught the megacorporations off-guard in a rebellious plot against the Federation. Quick action had to be taken to confront this perceived threat, and so the Senate made what was, given their knowledge at the time, a reasonable decision. They could’ve immediately mobilized the Navy to attack these militarized outposts, but instead sent a demand. One which could have been negotiable.

At this point, however, I must admit all reason was thrown out the proverbial airlock. But the demand itself was not unreasonable given the circumstances.

Also again, to all you non-Gallente out there, I do not cheat on my taxes. It’s a product of the translation software plus Gallente grammar.

The narrative of taxation falls flat when one considers that as regards Caldari corporate colonies they pre-existed the formation of the Federation by a few hundred years. As such, by what right could the Federation levy taxes on colonies that were not, and never were signatory to the Federation?

As such what you are essentially saying is how unfair it is for people who never chose to be part of the Federation, did not consider themselves to be under its authority, were not taxed by the Federation. Demanding taxation under the duress of force and violence as the Federation did is not within the purview of legitimate government action: it is extortion.

The Federation sought to impose itself on billions of people whose leaders they recognized never even signed on to the Federal charter in the first place because the Federal charter stated outright they were not to be recognized.

And sweet Maker, a rebellious plot? The first years of the war the Caldari State had to fight with converted merchant ships like the Kariola which was a hastily converted water freighter. You know why? Because there was no plot of “rebellion”, there was no military build-up, the allegations of such were just the Gallentean dog-whistles trying to play on the fears that Caldari would not bend the knee to their whims and demands anymore.

[Arrendis]

@Elmund_Egivand

Private owners are still required to declare their ownership of said colonies and pay their taxes.

They are now. You know what sticklers for The Rules™ the Caldari are, Elmund. If there’d already been laws in place regarding colonies established prior to the formation of the Federation, don’t you think they’d have made sure to adhere tightly to the letter of those rules? And, you know, since the colonies did predate the formation of the Fed, make damned sure the rules being considered worked to their advantage?