Are the Minmatar living in the Federation not citizens of the Federation like any other? Why do they need to worry so much about the Republic’s politics?
I personally don’t think they do. But I’m an optimist, and there are a lot of capsuleers who stray pretty close to Luc Duvailer’s politics.
“They’re free to go back to where they came from” is a primo sign of that.
If you think about it all four of the major powers are made up of seperate important peoples. Even in Amarr, who have forcefully conquered much of their empires population, has peoples once enslaved entirely rise to important positions centuries later.
Certainly a slow, backwards progression, especially to a Gallante, or probably even Caldari, who may be even more focused on performance based promotion, despite lack of personal liberties.
Especially since some of those Minmatar have been there for two centuries. Five or six generations of being Federation citizens. But racist bastards gonna racist bastard, I guess.
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I’m not racist.
In fact it’s usually Minmatar who actually think things like race or tribe are actually real and not just wholly arbitrary social constructs.
And yet you’re all too ready to tell ethnic Minmatar citizens of the Federation to “leave and go back where they came from.”
Which I’m curious about, by the way. Do you mean their planet of birth? My friend Tuk was born on Luminaire. Do you want him to go back there?
Do you mean the Republic? No one in Tuk’s ancestry has ever been a citizen of the Republic.
Do you mean the Empire, as a slave?
No, I was responding to the idea that Minmatar in the Federation would require “rescuing” from the Republic in similar fashion to slaves in the Empire.
Rescue from what?
Nothing is keeping Minmatar in the Federation here and nothing is keeping them from leaving if those are their choices.
Said just about every racist, ever.
Racists like you, among other things.
When I was a kid the only races that we hated were the ones that we ran and didn’t win!
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I imagine that this depends on the navy in question. I was raised to understand that a ship only works at peak efficiency when every member of the crew knows their job and does it without hesitation. This has served the clan well since the Great Rebellion. No one between then and now has cited a valid reason to question that wisdom, and this thread is no exception.
Capsuleers are not relevant because they are not what I am talking about.
I was not raised to run a ship, so that is not relevant either.
I think it was wrong. I also posit that whether I think it wrong does not matter, because I have the benefit of hindsight and implants that allow me to go over all the data I can see who gave the orders and what those orders resulted in. The men aboard the ships on both sides did not have either the benefit of hindsight, nor access to all that information. They were simply asked to do their jobs competently, and they did so. They deserve respect for that. It is not my fault that you lot have been in an egg so long that you can no longer relate to what things are like for the average hand. For this you have my contempt.
The system of government does not really matter. If someone has the choice to live where they want, and they choose to live somewhere, it can be presumed that they do not consider the policies of that polity disagreeable enough to move elsewhere. Where my clan draws the line is “Are they actively shooting our people”. Warships can be engaged without hesitation, but it is not honourable to engage people without weapons.
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Oh, it’s mutual, my strange little robot. It’s very mutual.
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Yes. However, part of an officer’s job on a warship is to take command where necessary (usually as a result of casualties), but also to relieve a superior officer of their position, should that superior officer show themselves unable to fulfil their duty. Which includes things like insanity, issuing illegal orders, or other things contravening the laws of war, regulations, etc.
Do we?
Even with the context … that … doesn’t seem necessary of you, pilot.
That’s great, but you’re responding to ‘I’m not talking about capsuleers’ with ‘capsuleers aren’t relevant’. No duh, if they were relevant, I’d be talking about capsuleers. But I’m not. Because they’re not relevant. I’m talking about the baseliner crew members and officers on every ship, including Navy/Fleet vessels. Keep up.
Were you ever trained to crew a ship? The duties of crewmembers, from the lowest deckhand through every last one of the officers, includes the duty to disobey illegal or immoral orders from higher up. You have made a statement that the officers and crew of a ship should be following orders regardless of their legality. That is patently untrue. They are legally required to refuse that order.
The officers aboard those ships absolutely had access to enough information to know whether or not to relay and confirm orders from their superiors. Which is why I said the rated crew, your ‘average hand’, could be absolved somewhat, but not the officers.
And it’s not my fault you were so poorly trained that you don’t seem to know what an enlisted rating is, nor the duties of officers aboard ship. Officers are not just there to be relays for the whims of the ship’s captain. They are stewards of the interests of the crew and the fleet, and both empowered and required to relieve a superior of duty if he attempts to engage the ship in illegal or immoral actions.
Now who’s been so long in the egg that they’re losing sight of the lives of normal people?
Most people—including most of our people in the Federation—cannot simply choose to live somewhere else. They have to make do with the government they have. And under those conditions, yes, the system of government matters very much.
The absolute best gaurantee if peace is a strong fence between neighbors, and means to defend that fence.
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There have been several relocation assistance programs that have existed, both sponsered by the Republic and by private donor’s. I even used to have one dedicated for Minmatar returning from the Empire, assisting in reeducation and reassimulation into tribal societies.
Maybe i should dust off the old blueprints and get that up and running again.
Well, let’s see… assuming ~500,000 per trip, and a trillion or so Federal Minmatar… that’s only 2,000 trips. Loading time of roughly 2h on each end, 1 hr round trip travel time… 8 months, running 'round the clock, once you’ve got the facilities set up and have managed to find a trillion jobs for people to do once they get to the Republic…
Do we have a 25% surplus across all parts of our economy?
Assuming, you know, they want to move into a nation where the guy in charge has pretty openly had thousands of people murdered in cold blood for not being his people… can’t imagine why they might prefer the slaver hound they know…
Yes, but if the order to jump into Colelie came from a superior, then not following that order would be considered insubordination, possibly with dereliction of duty tacked on atop of it once the incident is reviewed. Such a thing will only work if everyone in a position to stop the captain agrees with the captain’s decision, and they are all willing to burn their careers over it. And with it the opportunity to make a meaningful contribution to the safety of the inhabitants of the Republic. Evidently none of the captains of the baseliner ships disagreed with the order, or otherwise did not think that mutiny was feasible.
It is also possible that the command crews of the Republic Fleet jumped into Colelie under the assumption that they were going on a routine escort mission to retrieve the assassin and bring him to the Republic for trial.
And that is the nasty thing about it. We do not know what the RF crew and officers were told, and we do not know what kind of internal communications occurred.
That is why I say that the blame should be laid at the original source of the order, and thus far no one has presented any logs that prove that the entirety of that task force was like “Let’s go violate an ally’s territory.”
I’ve got a lot of family, close and distant, within the Fleet. I’ve been on a ship, or preparing to be on a ship, for my entire life, asides from rites that required me to return to the motherworld. If people are going to start throwing claims around that all of them had the level of knowledge about what was going on, that we have today, and in the process, badmouth good men and women, then yes, that’s going to get my blood up.
Yes, obviously. I do not understand why you are asking that.
This, again, assumes that they had sufficient knowledge about what was about to occur to make that decision. In case you haven’t noticed, transparency hasn’t exactly been high on the agenda since the Ray was attacked.
Based on what?
That assumes that the one who is supposed to countermand the captain has sufficient information to make that decision, and deems the order immoral. Evidently, one of the two conditional variables was untrue. And even so, officers are a fraction of the total numbers on a ship like that. So I will reiterate, that the majority of hands on both sides are not to be blamed for the incident, and that the person who issued the original order bears primary responsibility for it.
If any of them are unhappy with their living conditions and want to return to Matar, I will run flights in a Mastodon or a Prowler to get them home, any day of the week.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
And you’ll give them a home? A job? You’ll transplant their kids’ schools? Relocation is much bigger than just going someplace else.
Because your statements indicate a complete ignorance of the full scope of duties of shipboard officers and crew.
Based on these not being capsuleer vessels, by and large. That means the orders came in through a communications officer, who would have relayed those orders to both the captain and the XO (because the XO needs to know everything in case the captain snuffs it), at the very least. So now you’ve got 2 officers who aren’t the captain who are aware, before the ships jump into an ally’s territory, that they’re going to do so.
Then your captain has to tell the navigator and engineer, so they can begin plotting and prepping the jump, and let’s face it, that doesn’t happen in a vacuum, so now the whole bridge crew and engineering, both of which include both officers and rated crew, know what’s going to happen before it has.
And this hasn’t even gotten as far as ‘what’s the Old Man thinking?’ in the passageways among senior officers.
Exactly how is it that you think the baseliner captains get their ships to lock up and fire on Gallente ships in a Gallente system without, I dunno, telling Weapons or Tactical to do so? Because that moment right there? When Tac and Weaps know ‘we’re about to fire first on allies in their space’, which has, remember, come after the Gallente have told them to leave… that’s the moment the bridge officers have a responsibility to ask (if they haven’t already been told) ‘Captain, what the hell are you doing, this could start a war.’
All of them? No. The knowledge we have today? Obviously not. But that’s not the issue, now is it? The issue is whether or not the officers (because again, I’ve consistently said the ‘shut up and soldier, sailor’ line is mostly applicable to rated crew) had enough information to know that what they were doing was illegal and immoral.
Which, as I’ve demonstrated, they did. Because they had to have that information, or the order doesn’t get carried out.
Based on it being their jobs. The tactical officer’s job is to know the ship he’s ordering locked up is a Gallente ship, and whether or not his ship’s been fired upon. The weapons officer’s job is to know, among other things, that he’s about to open fire, because if he doesn’t know what those big red buttons do, he shouldn’t have that job.
And on and on.
That’d be the XO, and if you know a baseliner captain who starts a firefight under orders without making sure the First Officer knows absolutely everything he needs to know to take over, get him out of that chair, because that captain is a danger to his ship and his crew.
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