"Trillions of Federation Minmatar would be alienated or perhaps even abandoned by Republic" - Elusenian government-in-exile requests clarification regarding the Republic Government's position towards diaspora in event of possible alliance suspension

Well if they’re no longer allies, it’s less likely that people would be able to freely cross the border for family or business reasons.

Well, you can start by looking at the attitude people like @Sevrailan_Tian_Valirieux there are demonstrating toward the Minmatar people regardless of citizenship.

If they are not loyal to the Empress first and foremost, they are not following the Amarr faith. Factor that in, and the answer is obvious: they’re seditionists, just waiting for the call to action. It’s one of the reasons the State doesn’t allow the Amarr to proselytize in their space.

I agree. Heck, I’d like there to be real and lasting peace between the Empire and everyone else, too. But while the Empire maintains a divine mandate to subjugate literally all of humanity, they remain the ones making that peace impossible. Someone aiming a gun at you and saying ‘don’t worry, I swear I won’t shoot’ but refusing to put the gun down… isn’t peace.

1 Like

It might be. That depends on any guns you may or not be holding, or utterances you’ve made in the recent past.

No, it doesn’t. Mutual threat is not peace. It is simply waiting for the initiation of physical hostilities.

To a degree, that day has already come. Granted, the incident was not as severe as what some other Capsuleers have experienced. Even so, without it, I would still be where I began.

The choice those Feds made was to serve in the Federal Navy. The choice those Matari made was to serve in the Republic Fleet. They were not the players who moved pieces on the board that day, and you do not achieve anything by objecting once you’re already in a foreign system and all hands are called to battlestations.

It is true that there may be orders that contradict tradition or legislation, and that is a different matter entirely. When it comes to that particular dilemma I would say that tradition outweighs the others, but you do not always have the choice of doing what you feel like when the rest of the crew depends on you.

Capsuleers can cut off their connection to their fleet and warp off whenever they want to. Hands on a baseliner ship can not do this. Their fates are tied to their ships, and their fellow crewmen.

Unfortunately I must dispel that enjoyment, as I am not lecturing her. I am discussing a matter with her. Lecturing her would go against tradition.

The only two things that made Colelie different was that it was a purely symbolic action, directed against an ally. On a personal level, I might consider that dishonourable. I might also consider it a waste of good men. However, to the person who had the authority to make the decision, and made it, it appeared a reasonable response. And thus it went ahead. Time will tell whether they will ever be confronted with the consequences of that decision. Beyond those two distinctions, it was just another case of servicemen paying the price for a failure to reach a consensus with words.

They were given their orders, and they carried them out. I do not blame them for that. I blame those who issued the order, and the society that produced such leaders. That culture, rather than the individual servicemen, is why I know that my people will never be safe as long as their people have the capability to commit such acts, and the theological viewpoint to justify them.

How about you come over to Dammalin so we can discover the security challenge my foot poses to your ass?

Approximately the only thing we have in common.

Mutual threat is an excellent way to secure peace.

That was only one of the choices made. You do not sacrifice your agency, nor your responsibility, after making that choice.

You absolutely do. The lives of your crew are, in the end, one of the factors you must weigh when making your choices… but you still have them.

The men who carried out the order bear as much responsibility as the one who gave it. You cannot absolve anyone of responsibility by reducing them to being nothing more than a drone, an automaton. I, for one, will not adopt the Amarr tendency to see others at less than human.

No, it is only a means to attempt to buy time in which peace can take hold. And it usually fails.

I would hope one does not sacrifice their agency. It is required to function as a part of a crew, after all. One’s responsibility in the heat of the moment is to execute the assigned tasks competently.

The capsuleer perspective is not relevant to this discussion.

No, If the commanding officer calls all hands to battlestations, you go to where you are supposed to be, and you carry out the task you’ve spent the past few years training for during drills. If a person can not do that due to becoming philosophical under fire they should not be on a warship to start with. Because that makes them a liability to the rest of the crew, and to the ship. At worst you cause a problem and everyone sucks vacuum. At best you sit the rest of the deployment out in the brig until the ship returns to where it’s task force is staging from.

I’m wondering, Jesoph, if your stance here has any room for an officer to refuse an order and citing the appropriate law, relieve the captain of command.
Admittedly this is a more difficult question in the age of capsule warships, whether those be independent or state naval capsuleers.
Is your stance really that officers and crew must obey all orders, and are thus damned at the whim of the ships captain ?

That has nothing to do with being a capsuleer. If they’re not sacrificing their agency, then they still bear responsibility for their decisions. The lives of the crew are one of the factors a ship’s baseliner officers and captain must take into consideration, but they still have a choice.

For the rated crew, there’s some merit to this, but for the officer cadre on the ship? No, not at all. Part of their job is to protect against someone higher up issuing illegal or immoral orders. And if you don’t understand that, you have no business running a ship.

I suspect the unspoken thing in Swolin’s arguments is that he’s in favor of Colelie. He’s pleased that the Republic fired on an ally. He thinks all those deaths are just. I suspect that if an order came down that he felt was truly wrong, he would change his tune.

I don’t think you can look at Vallrieux and say that he speaks for most people in the Federation.

And I get what you’re saying about the Empire. I really do. For myself, a big step on my path from angry young woman to less angry older woman was letting myself be okay with the idea that the people living within a nation aren’t necessarily responsible for the things that nation does. I’ve always been something of a postnationalist, and I think that makes it easier, too. Instead of bashing my head against the wall that is “The Federation” or “The State,” I can just deal with people.

Meaningful reunification of the Federation and the State - one that doesn’t see one nation taking over the other, but instead sees both nations coming together to make something grander - is a long game. I don’t expect to see it in my lifetime. It doesn’t mean that it’s not worth working for, however.

He doesn’t need to speak for most people in the Federation. Most people in the Federation didn’t kill Karin Midular, after all. It doesn’t take a majority to be a threat.

Except that’s exactly the premise of Democracy, isn’t it? That when the people don’t support what the government is doing, they can change the government to better reflect the agenda they do support? By extension, then… if they stay the course, that’s them taking responsibility for not changing their government, no?

Why? If the Caldari don’t want to be part of the Federation, then why is unification anything they should see as desirable?

I don’t want the State to be absorbed into the Federation. There’s a lot of b******t in the history of the Federation and the State, and you could make an argument that both nations are the misshapen result of a war that never should have happened.

Someday, perhaps, we’ll sit down and talk about that first thing you said, about most people in the Federation not killing Midular. But not here, and not today.

That’s fine. I’m just pointing out that you said you didn’t see anything that suggests Minmatar in the Fed would get screwed—that doesn’t need a majority, it only needs angry people willing to commit violence.

I was paraphrasing the OP, who’s saying that Federation Minmatar would be alienated by the Republic if we ceased to be allies. As in “Republic tribes would abandon them” or “The Republic would consider them traitors” or something of the sort. It’s why Inhonores was asking for clarification from the Republic.

I personally don’t see the loss of the alliance leading to any such thing, hence my statement. But I am curious to see what, if any, response the Republic might offer to him.

The Republic isn’t going to offer any response to the agitation of any capsuleer, either for or against their interests. Except as it concerns serving their purposes in the FW arenas, they’d prefer we all just stop existing, thanks.

As a general principle, though… if we haven’t stopped the liberation raids the Amarr continue to whine about, I doubt very much we’ll abandon people we don’t have to break any laws to help.

I don’t think Minmatar in the Federation will require any saving.

They’re always free to leave and go back to where they came from at any time.

It didn’t end well for the U-Nats the first time around, you know, Valirieux…

I don’t consider myself reactionary enough for Ultranationalist politics personally. U-nats are a goofy bunch to me. Idiots yes, but occasionally even idiots can be made to be useful.