"Trillions of Federation Minmatar would be alienated or perhaps even abandoned by Republic" - Elusenian government-in-exile requests clarification regarding the Republic Government's position towards diaspora in event of possible alliance suspension

Well I’ve got to say when you put it like that it does seem suspicious!

I suppose I’ll never find out one way or another what really happened in Malkalen, I’m not exactly the type of guy to put on a brains trust for that kind of thing.

It just sounds like the plot out of some action holo-flick or one of those thrillers you read on a long haul trip!

I read a thing a while back that asserted there were two explosions aboard the Malkalen station a very short time, on the order of seconds, before the Gallente carrier rammed it. One in the navigational shield system that ordinarily prevents this kind of malarkey, the other in a section near one of the medical sections.
So there was definitely something weird going on at the time.

I am inclined to agree with the few here who suggest you ■■■■ or get off the pot in regards to your ties with the Republic. You and your people continue to choose a life with the Fed, and with that is carried all of the consequences of doing so.

This all coming from a Thukker who respects the Tribes of the Republic for what they are trying to achieve as a Nation, and yet will not participate directly in that enterprise for my own ideological reasons, despite the sacrifices my Caravan made in the Elder War.

In the eyes of CONCORD my people are criminals, even amongst our brothers and sisters in Heimatar, Metropolis, and Molden Heath, so we are relegated to wormholes, and the fringes of New Eden. We accept this, because it has allowed us a sovereignty of the soul that the trappings of politics prohibits.

Perhaps you could take this as a pointed lesson for your so-called Government in Exile.

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I had a bit of a think in the shower recently and I began to wonder if the real reason Shakor wants to break the alliance with the Fed is so that if his opponents try to get help from the Federation they risk ending up dead with a notepad saying, “Gallente Spy” written on it. :thinking:

What makes you think Shakor needs that fig leaf when he’s got EDENCOM right there to use to accuse people of being Amarr collaborators again?

Do you think anyone in the Republic didn’t get the message the last time he murdered thousands of our people?


To be fair, quite a lot of us needed remedial lessons later.

Yeah at first I was thinking Shakor might have wanted to prevent support of dissidents in Republic by Minmatar in the Federation but then I realized if Minmatar in the Federation were really opposed to what Shakor is doing they probably would have said or done something by now.

The man caused the death of my tribe’s chief. He should have been handed over immediately. The same should also hold true if one of ours attacked one of your presidents. That does not mean that I think that sending warships into Colelie was a good idea, but it did get the message through.

Appeasement was attempted during the Ray’s time. It taught us that the Empire will demand concession after concession until there is nothing left to give. To make the same mistake again and expect a different outcome is insanity. Predators do not change. The prey can go down easily, or it can resist. The latter is the sensible option. That being the case, perhaps Vale should take a page out of Skarkon’s book.

I was not in the Academy then. I was doing my time as a tribal cadet. That aside the limited size of the force that jumped into Colelie makes it clear to everyone that this was a purely symbolic act rather than a serious campaign. It was done in response to the man who murdered our chief not being extradited. It achieved the goal of fast-tracking that. It was not a well-thought-out decision, but it was decided, and when a decision is made, the Fleet obeys.

Indie Capsuleers have the liberty to decide whether or not they wish to be a part of such an endeavour. For actively serving military personnel, this is not the case. Without obedience and discipline a warship does not work. If you accept a posting on a warship, your moral responsibility is to follow the directives of the captain and his lessers as well as you are able. If people want to wax philosophically about what is right and what is wrong, they can do so during their childhood, or whilst on shoreleave, or after retirement. Not when one is at their post. Normally I would write that off as a Swolin thing, because it is something of grave importance and significance for us, but I dare say that the same holds true for anyone who serves as a subordinate on a ship that is under fire, or about to be under fire.

Everyone in that system followed their orders as best they could. Some people made it home. Others joined their ancestors. They are not to be blamed or judged for what happened. That is reserved for the people on both sides who made the decisions that resulted in the engagement.

A day will come, Jesoph Swolin, when things for you too will not be black and white, when loyalties and duties will not be clearcut and pull all in the same direction.

That will be the day when you truly begin grow up, given that you survive the experience. As did I.


This way lies madness. Of course they are to be judged for what they chose to do. If your commanding officer orders you to go and kill the Sanmatar, that order is illegal, and you are obligated to refuse to follow it, as you are to refuse to follow any immoral or illegal order. You sound like a Sarumite when you insist otherwise.

You can choose to obey, or you can choose to disobey. You will always be judged for those choices, no matter what they are. And it will be right that you are. ‘I was ordered’ does not absolve someone of their responsibility to chart a moral course. It only means others share the blame for your actions.



A good leader will always try to say “I gave the order, the people who took it are not to blame.” And to this day I say that of the Colelie fleet I was involved with: the decision to engage was mine. The people who showed loyalty to me should not be judged for it; I will speak for my actions and accept their trust in me with gratitude.

Yet Ava Starfire who spoke in my defense right after is also correct: I did tell the fleet they can leave if they think they cannot follow through, and they chose to stay. And that was their call, too, and it is not mine to diminish that choice.

Things are not always straightforward, and loyalty is like dice cast in that only when it is in the air you truly know how you wish it would land.


I’m simply enjoying the spectacle of this Swolin fellow trying to lecture Elsebeth Rhiannon.

Colelie was a blight. It shattered loyalties, friendships, and - oh yes - flesh. Those who were there and survived have had to come to terms with what took place on that day. Those who have lost friends and loved ones at Colelie have to live on without them, and somehow move on. The fallout from that “reasonable response” continue to echo down through the years.


The bombardiers on the fleet above Starkman Prime were also just “following orders” when they laid in the aim points and began the firing sequence on their space to surface siege lasers.

Given the latest news I guess those Minmatar pundits who made assurances that the Federation and Empire would be diametrically opposed to each other and unable to find rapprochement if the State and Republic signed mutual treaties were wrong.

Nope. I understand where you might be seeing that, but the Federation and the Empire aren’t agreeing to cooperate so much as just establishing a ‘oh, we totally won’t openly oppose one another’. ie: if the State and Republic make common cause, neither the Empire nor the Fed will bail us out.

That’s not cooperation, that’s just agreeing to stay out of each other’s way. And I promise you: if either one of them sees the other making significant gains outside of the CONCORD-delineated bloodsport arenas, they’ll make covert moves to limit those gains.


I for one am glad that both the Federation and the Empire were able to reach a mutual understanding in regards to respecting our common borders while we’re both confronted by the security challenges presented by our respective rebel territories.

Truly, we’re realizing the dream of Heideran and Elabon to work towards a common peace.

You invaded intaki for no reason, don’t complain when we start to find way to hurt you back

Spoken like someone with a true respect for the rights of a people to determine their own fate. /s

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People are always free to choose, so long as they choose the Gallente Federation.

I’m still looking for anything that suggests Federation Minmatar would somehow be screwed if the Federation and the Republic cease to be allies.

It’s easy to lump people together with governments. To talk about “The Gallente” or “The Minmatar.” But things are seldom so neat.

My clade (no, we’re not Triglavian) has genes from racial Gallente, Deteis, and Achurans. We’re split pretty evenly between Luminaire and Tierijev. Are we Gallente? Are we Caldari?

There are followers of the Amarrian faith in the Federation. Are they Amarrian? Are they Gallente?

There are vast numbers of Minmatar in the Republic, in the Federation, and the Empire (both as free Ammatar and slaves). The Republic-or-Ammatar question is an easy one to answer, for obvious reasons, but that’s about the only easy answer. Especially when it comes to Federation Minmatar. If you don’t think the border between the Empire and Federation is more than a little porous, and you don’t think a bunch of those vast numbers of Minmatar’s ancestors were smuggled out of the Empire into the Federation…

If something awful happens and the Republic and Federation cut all ties, that’s not going to change who the Minmatar in either nation are.

For the record, by the way, before the warmongers start blathering again: despite spending quite a lot of time shoving people off of this mortal coil in space, I’m pretty strongly in favor of both peace and self-determination. If I had my way, there would be peace between the State and the Federation. I think the Intaki have gotten a raw deal, and I’d prefer things to be resolved (in whatever way they end up resolving) at the negotiating table instead of by bringing in my sort of pilot.