Upcoming Changes to Drone Aggression

[SleepLacker]

@Na_av

With 5 characters I get a reduced payout for site completion compared to if I do the site with 4. Overall, I make more money with 5, but the value per character is reduced, meaning I’m above the recommended number of pilots in the site.

Well, yeah, it’s to be expected.

I could do T2, or even T3 Abyss using 2 or 3 characters, but my efficiency more than likely wouldn’t surpass just doing T1 Abyssals on each character separadetly.

Pochven is new and fresh content, so people haven’t found the most optimal ways to clearing it, while getting the best income possible, if that’s even possible to calculate.

Calculating the Abyss is mostly done by averaging data of 100+ runs and checking the average clear time and income from everything summed together, as each run will often vary from one another.

From what I could see in the EVE wiki about Pochven sites, they only point out the objectives to destroy, and the bosses you’ll face, so I assume the enemy waves that spawn are random, and people will mostly likely start calculating isk/h by using a bundled number of runs, trying to reach a META.

When that META is achieved, is likely that CCP will make changes to nerf it, if they find it too effective, or if it goes against their intented methods of players approaching it.

And that’s not even taking into account how the market would simply adjust itself over time from people overfarming the content, as the only real thing that doesn’t change in price is Triglavian Survey Data.

[Ramona_McCandless]

I thought you were saying it impacted HS and LS system play less than null sec and this is why anyone who didnt do sites in Null/Poochey/WH didnt know what they were talking about.

If not, then I apologise for mixing you up with someone else.

[Na_av]

@SleepLacker

When that META is achieved, is likely that CCP will make changes to nerf it

Haven’t seen changes to incursions in forever, and that’s a huge generator of income for those that can run them consistently. It also doesn’t take very much attention to do unless you’re flying logi. So this is clearly false.

@SleepLacker

I could do T2, or even T3 Abyss using 2 or 3 characters, but my efficiency more than likely wouldn’t surpass just doing T1 Abyssals

I recently experimented with this idea. Teir 3s are difficult to do with low attention gameplay, or even high attention gameplay and a cheap fit. However, you can feasibly run T1 and T2 abyssals while paying minimal attention to the client. Meaning, you can take a handful of accounts and run multiple T2 abyssals to achieve a total income similar to a single account running teir 4s. However, because the drop rates of high dollar items are low in 2s, you’re still likely to make less than a single account in teir 5s or teir 6s.

The difference between abyssal sites and anomalies is that the income from the former is largely based on loot while the latter is entirely based on bounty payments. While it may be a difficult reform, changes to the bounty payment system would likely be the best interim change to curb low/no attention gameplay till anomalies can be reworked to make them more interactive.

[SleepLacker]

@Na_av

@SleepLacker

When that META is achieved, is likely that CCP will make changes to nerf it

Haven’t seen changes to incursions in forever, and that’s a huge generator of income for those that can run them consistently. It also doesn’t take very much attention to do unless you’re flying logi. So this is clearly false.

@SleepLacker

When that META is achieved, is likely that CCP will make changes to nerf it, if they find it too effective, or if it goes against their intented methods of players approaching it.

You simply ignored the second half of the comment.

They are currently going around making changes to go after their planned risk/effort/reward ratios, which they consider the base requirement for a healthy ecosystem.

If there’s no changes to incursions, then it probably means that these ratios are healthy for that kind of content in their eyes.

Same for people farming sleeper sites in C6 WHs with dreads, solo. They can rank in billions at once, but means they have to be living in these WHs to even own a dread there in the first place.

Neither are safe from changes though, as when the economy starts to stabilize and these two remain unbalanced when compard to everything else, it’s unlikely that there won’t be balance changes, to either the rewards, or the content difficulty.

@Na_av

I recently experimented with this idea. Teir 3s are difficult to do with low attention gameplay, or even high attention gameplay and a cheap fit. However, you can feasibly run T1 and T2 abyssals while paying minimal attention to the client.

@Na_av

The difference between abyssal sites and anomalies is that the income from the former is largely based on loot while the latter is entirely based on bounty payments.

CCP isn’t trying to balance income with this change though.

They are trying to adress low to no attention gameplay, which, as you pointed out, can even be achieved in the low tier Abyss sites.

[ZaxZax]

Guys if you dont like it, simply unsubscribe. CCP is $$ driven. Well, maybe, when they see people not liking it they will make a compromise next time.

Like, they could just add a module that would give drones specific properties, including aggressive mode?

[Scoots_Choco]

@ZaxZax

Like, they could just add a module that would give drones specific properties, including aggressive mode?

Why would CCP change a mechanic and then immediately go back and introduce something that would render the change meaningless?

[Conan_edogawa]

@Scoots_Choco

Why would CCP change a mechanic and then immediately go back and introduce something that would render the change meaningless?

You mean like adding ESS and then nerfing drone which is probably 99% of what fills them up ?

Or maybe system upgrades and then putting Bounty Risk Modifier so that low % system are never run and upgrades go offline ?

[Scoots_Choco]

@Conan_edogawa

You mean like adding ESS and then nerfing drone which is probably 99% of what fills them up ?

Can you explain this a bit more, I’m not sure what you’re trying to imply here.

@Conan_edogawa

Or maybe system upgrades and then putting Bounty Risk Modifier so that low % system are never run and upgrades go offline ?

I would appreciate it if you actually used standard EVE Online terms. Are you referring to IHUB upgrades and ADM levels? Because that’s an entirely different system from the Bounty Risk Modifier. (I’m sure you know that but are just trying to raise these in a disingenuous attempt to conflate the two).

[Lloyd_Roses]

1329 posts later

CCP: “Press F for drones to attack NPCs”
Most people: “Okay”
Some people: “Eve is ending”

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Na_av

Haven’t seen changes to incursions in forever, and that’s a huge generator of income for those that can run them consistently. It also doesn’t take very much attention to do unless you’re flying logi. So this is clearly false.

Incursion sites have halved in number, pretty much the same time this new trig content hit the scene. Coincidence? Put 2 and 2 together, got to shift people from the old content from the new, lest they treat it like the waste of time resource wars was.

[Kaitenn]

and for botting not change is only change setting…

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Scoots_Choco

Oh, so your feelings are hurt. That’s it? Iono, grow a pair?

Pick on someone your own size ? Shouldn’t you be recruiting other knuckleheads to join your corp?

@Scoots_Choco

Why do you keep doing this.

CCP isn’t trying to fix “boring / poorly designed content”.
CCP is trying to fix low-attention gameplay.

CCP are fixing the wrong thing, which is the message that needs to be communicated.

@Scoots_Choco

Where are you getting the idea that CCP is trying to come up with a new and different gameplay loop for PvE? Stop replacing CCP’s stated goal with your own fanfiction and then getting butthurt when CCP isn’t achieving your goal.

Its nothing to do with fan fiction. The problem is CCP isn’t doing new PvE and CCP’s goals have been an awful mess.

@Merin_Ryskin

You keep ignoring the fact that, for all people say “WE WANT MORE INTERESTING PVE”, when CCP gives it to them they keep farming the same menial content and whine on the forums about how difficult the new stuff is.

When abysal sites were first released, you came out of the site with a suspect flag. Of course nobody wanted to deal with that crap and it took far too long for CCP to realise nobody wanted to do content that resulted in a pack of tornado vultures easily taking your hard earned winnings.

@Merin_Ryskin

PvE players overwhelmingly want menial content that they can AFK multibox, and most of the talk of “interesting PvE” is just a dishonest attempt to reverse nerfs to the menial content.

Incursions aren’t menial content. FOB’s are not menial content. Are they achievable by small or solo groups? Traditional Anomalies need work and its very rich of CCP to do such a blanket nerf, when this business with the Triglavian space must have taken up a non trivial amount of dev time.

@SleepLacker

If there’s no changes to incursions, then it probably means that these ratios are healthy for that kind of content in their eyes.

Incursions aren’t reliant on drones, but its a lot easier to take out some of the rats with them than waiting for guns to cycle, though, I’m just a lowly basi pilot.

@Na_av

As far as what is said in game, on Talking In Stations, and on interviews with CCP developers, the case is usually that CCP makes new content and no one cares.

Yup. Right there.

@Na_av

It’s absolutely stupid to argue that people will not complain when their daily activities are affected by a change. However, an ineffectual change will only result in a shift of activities to one with a similar effort/isk value.

Like people who took their mining alts and just said screw it, I’ll just take the hit and do PI instead.

@Na_av

Currently, the best effort/isk value is in null sec anomalies, ratting with afk drone boats. If that is removed, those players will find another easy way to make money without much effort, because its what they do and have done for years.

Even with the DBS, every 20 minutes ISK goes in your pocket.

@Na_av

Yep, but not with drones. Drones aren’t the problem. It’s more fundamental than the weapon system. And thus not addressed by this change.

Nerfing drones is easier than making the other weapon platforms better. CCP buffed the phoenix and torpedoes, but pretty much every other weapon platform is better for, well, everything.

[Conan_edogawa]

@Scoots_Choco

Can you explain this a bit more, I’m not sure what you’re trying to imply here.

@Scoots_Choco

Are you referring to IHUB upgrades and ADM levels? Because that’s an entirely different system from the Bounty Risk Modifier.

Yes I’m referring to that. Those features are different but interact with each other, as described before. What happens to system with low bounty modifier ? Nobody farms. What happens to military index if nobody farms ? It goes down.

I was mocking CCP and their ability to nullify some of their own features.

[SleepLacker]

Let me bring another set of opinions to the discussion table.

Yesterday, I’ve watched the ImperiumNews, simply because the comments on Reddit said the cast dropped their usual herpaderp and grrr attittudes and had a serious discussion for a little bit at the end of the show about the economy.

Most of their arguments were ridiculous imo.

Brisc commented on how they(the CSM) originally said that Rorquals would break then economy.

Not long after, he was talking about all the recent nerfs to Rorquals, and how no one is using Rorquals anymore.

Yeah, no one is using Rorquals in low sec and making bank, right…?

When it came to the drone changes, Bric mentioned that it’s been a change players have been asking for years.

His counter argument to it was: “Why now…?”

Then, there’s Merkelchen, who mentioned how the middle portion of the playerbase is the most affected by the recent nerfs, like if the government suddenly got rid of all most common notes and only left 5s, 10s, and 100s.

I can agree with that kind of thought, but it loses all meaning when your suggestion to fix that is to create a new titan2, or anything cool for rich players to buy.

He even mentioned how he simply bought a faction Titan because he had nothing else to spend on, while laughing and saying he and the other cast members aren’t out there spinning Havens and are lucky they can just go out and have fun PvPing instead of working to afford a ship, while fueling their CEO’s pockets with isk…

The only real arguments I can sympathize with is, first of all, Mittani mentioning how it sucks that now winning the war might not feel as good anymore, when/if the main reasons for the victory is that CCP nerfed the enemy income to the ground.

He mentioned how Brave is currently kinda broke, and for goon members to not go make fun of them asking for donations to keep participating in the war.

That definitely sucks, but he still kinda missed the point he raised himself multiple times, on how this has been such a long standing war.

War is supposed to cause loses and damage, so it’s unrealistic to think it would be possible to keep up an endless war, until the victory condition, whichever it might be, is achieved.

The war lasting this long, and with such ridiculous events like dropping keepstars left and right, is proof on how out of hand the isk faucets had become over the past few years.

The other point I can agree with is also his, when he asks when will we, the players, know that CCP has achieved their current goal of adjusting the ecosystem.

Currently they have a roadmap, so we can only look at that and trust that they will follow it, but even if their stated goals are to balance risk/effort/reward, and creating a healthy ecosystem before developing new dynamic content, how do we know the ecosystem is healthy in their eyes?

Is the price of PLEX related to it, as it’s one of the easiest ways to check inflation?

Is the price of tritanium related?

Is the player count related?

Is the new player retation rate related?

Some people mentioned before, but instead of just doing some random PvP or designer streams, CCP should properly discuss their plans and roadmap using their main channels, instead of just an article and pictures in their devblog.

If they come out with real examples of balance and what their goals are, like soloing a T1 abyss in a frigate has a similar income to doing a T3 in a cruiser, all affected by the risk/effort/reward, maybe people won’t be so pissed off knowing when this “famine expansion” will end, and what type of carrot they can expect from it.

So far, they just keep talking of a magical carrot, but no one has any idea of what it will be so far.

Is FW finally getting a rework? Who knows.

Are PvP players going to be able to get ships in a reasonable way without having to farm isk for hours? Who knows?

Is PvE going to become more dynamic in the entire game, from combat anomalies to missions? Who knows.

Is a 100% solution to bots going to be implemented? Who knows?

No one knows anything.

Even CSM members are being thrown out of the loop, being unable to give enough feedback prior to major changes, so it’s no wonder players are mad, when we just get the changes beign announced, without even being aware if our feedback is getting heard.

Being left out of the conversation always leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth.

[Hai_Nakrar]

most peoples OK with it? seriously? not everyone want to farm in a freaking carrier. this will have a chain affect and soon enough the peoples that want pvp will start to cry because they will find less and less peoples in space, forget the ESS because there wont be much to bother to defend it

[TYR3L]

@CCP_Paradox, a couple of questions…

• Once drones have destroyed an NPC target, will they then immediately switch to a “return and orbit” state and start travelling back to the player’s ship, regardless of whether there are hostile ships nearby?

• Or, will they stop dead in space, thereby risking full damage from any NPCs that might be attacking them?

• When drones that are split across multiple targets, destroy their individual targets, will they group up with other drones to attack existing targets? Or does each drone need to be micromanaged?

• Will drones ever attack the NPC ships that are attacking them, without being directed to? (I’m assuming no)

This change seems unlikely to lead to more interesting gameplay (which ideally would be the goal). It will possibly just make PVE even more tedious than it already is. Considering how clunky the drone UI is, it might even add more frustration. Who knows, maybe this will strip away some of the confusion of ‘where the hell are those drones going?’

[Scoots_Choco]

@TYR3L

This change seems unlikely to lead to more interesting gameplay (which ideally would be the goal)

The goal isn’t “lead to more interesting gameplay” though.

[Mike_Azariah]

for the record? I am fairly sure most bots play eve better than I do.

I am a fallible human who makes mistakes, is distracted, has fun.

I am better at having fun, though.

m

[Rieleph]

It will make boring, repetitive content more boring and more repetitive. If you, CCP, want more attentive activities, please rethink ratting more thoroughly. Because now you are affecting everyone except bots. Bots would get boosted because they’ll have less competition.

And I must say my comeback to the game is disappointment. I learned mining, because in the system my friends live it was possible to mine over 200 mil / day. You nerfed mining. So I learned droneboat ratting. And now you are nerfing ratting. I’m afraid to start to skill into anything else because I have a feeling that as soon as I’ll get any good at it, you will nerf that, too! Can I have an official answer to what to learn next so you won’t nerf it as soon as I learn it?

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Rieleph

And now you are nerfing ratting.

No they aren’t. They’re nerfing AFK farming. If you aren’t AFK your ISK/hour is completely unchanged.