Kidnapping and enslavement? What are you talking about? It’s armed machines that capsuleers have fought. It’s the drifters who break their enclaves and steal the bodies.
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Alleged. There’s rumors about part of the tech developed and used from Sleeper/Drifter caches containing parts or whole infomorphs and that they are integral to said tech even working. Which would sure as hell explain them being somewhat… miffed.
Of course, that part remains a rumor, but a disturbingly plausible one.
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I have to say, I’ve never heard anything like that even mentioned in the two years I’ve lived out here. Much like Drifters walking into someone’s hangar, it sounds like a bad movie plot.
There is no evidence I’m aware of that the Sleepers are any more “alive” than your average low sec sentry turret.
That said, even if they were “alive”, what we do in wormhole space is perfectly legal in the eyes of anyone who actually has the power to stop us.
In the nine years since wormhole space opened itself to us, Sleeper drones have been destroyed in their millions. They’ve certainly taken more than a few ships down with them, but they have no real power to stop us capsuleers. If they did, they would have. As they can’t, I’m not going to feel guilty for blowing up some automated tin cans.
Also, I’d like to address this idea that we’re somehow damaging Sleeper “infrastructure”. We’re really not. I’ve never met anyone who even takes pot shots at their buildings. We destroy the drones, we take the shiny stuff, and we leave. I’m not even sure we could destroy their larger structures if they’re anything like as tough as their larger drones.
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Ah, the fault lies with them not being strong enough to repel the invaders. What a lovely world view. Funny how that tends to be frowned upon when the targets are people.
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They’re not people though.
Should everyone just stop shooting rogue drones because they’re not powerful enough to stop us?
Edit to add:
Your argument breaks down even when there are people involved. Will you stop shooting Amarr loyalists who aren’t powerful enough to stop you? Will people stop shooting Angels, or Sansha, or Raiders, or Guristas, or any non-capsuleers because they aren’t powerful enough to stop us?
Of course not, because it’s not as simple a matter as “can I do this, yes, so I will”, it’s “do I want to do this, yes, so I will”. That is the essence of being a capsuleer.
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We don’t know what they are, Sleepers or Drifters both. There’s plenty of indication that there’s a lot more than meets the eye though, and there’s plenty of reasons to believe the Drifters at least are infomorphs of some sort, and that the Sleepers have been protecting infomorph repositories of some sort.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if that’s the sort of thing that got the Drifters’ attentions.
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Sleepers and Drifters are obviously not the same thing.
You only have to look at them to know that.
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Origin is not mine, but I was offered a home there, and it has become my home, and, bob willing, I will help defend it when threatened with eviction.
As far as the Sleepers are concerned, as far as I can recall I have not fired a single shot at them or their structures.
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Not the same thing, but there’s plenty of reason to think they are connected. For a subject we have so little firm knowledge on, you are very quick to dismiss things.
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For someone with so little firm knowledge on the subject you’re very quick to throw conclusions around.
I live in that subject. I see it every single day. The only link between Sleepers and Drifters in “normal” wormhole space, is a structure that doesn’t even become visible until all the Sleeper drones in an area are destroyed. For all we know, the Drifters are actively spying on the Sleepers with hostile intent. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the Drifters are protecting or working with Sleepers, or vice versa.
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What makes someone a person though? For all we know Sleepers may a civilization’s informophs who’s memories have been uploaded into these drones, or at least some of them. Or perhaps the drones are very sophisticated AI capable of, at least, human level sapience and sentience.
Of course not, because it’s not as simple a matter as “can I do this, yes, so I will”, it’s “do I want to do this, yes, so I will”. That is the essence of being a capsuleer.
Having a privilege doesn’t make the privilege necessarily correct or defensible.
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Well if they are uploaded infomorphs they most likely have the ability to upload it to another machine. Just like we capsuleers do. But it’s still a machine and will stay a machine. It’s not flesh. It’s not neurons. It’s metal and circuits. It has no spirit and will never become a human regardless of how cute you make it.
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If they were people they would have at least attempted communication.
Is doesn’t matter if it’s correct or defensible, it matters if you have it.
Having a privilege or advantage and deliberately not using it out of a sense of… what, unfairness? That’s just a waste. You can’t win battles with a sense of honour or righteousness. At some point a punch has to be thrown, and if you’re holding yourself back to make it “fair”, you’re wasting your own time.
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I argue that a spirit is not a necessary criteria for being a human, let alone a person, as we have no clear definition, concept of evidence of said. Also, why should being biological be a necessary criteria of being a person? Our bodies as capsuleers are arguably artificial, yet we maintain our personhood merely because our artificial bodies are largely biological? I don’t find that argument convincing.
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There might be reasons why they did not. Do you communicate with everyone you run across in your travels? Perhaps the Sleepers weren’t interested in talking.
Is doesn’t matter if it’s correct or defensible, it matters if you have it.
And for those who chose not to act on their privilege or don’t have the same concept of this privilege as you, what is their fate in this worldview?
You can’t win battles with a sense of honour or righteousness. At some point a punch has to be thrown, and if you’re holding yourself back to make it “fair”, you’re wasting your own time.
Are you arguing that the Sleepers “threw the first punch?”
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Because even our artifical bodies follow the basics of biology and physiology. It functions just like the body we were born in.
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I mean…
They shoot on site anyone who approaches their conclaves (except Zephyrs, weirdly. I’ll have to work on that).
It’s also not totally outlandish to suggest that whatever caused the Seyllin event, the Sleepers may well have been involved.
So yeah, I kinda think they started it.
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So it’s our bodies that make us human? What about our collection of memories, or our sense of connection to other humans?
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Then why, nine years and millions of destroyed drones later, have they still said nothing?
If they chose not to act, they cannot complain when others choose differently.
If their “concept of privilege” is different, I don’t particularly care what they do. They’re obviously never going to be very interesting.
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Well that’s all part of our minds. What makes us human is the combination of body, mind, and spirit. No matter how advanced machines you make, they will never have a body nor a spirit.
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