But is that a result of Sleeper aggression, or retaliating against ours?
It’s also not totally outlandish to suggest that whatever caused the Seyllin event, the Sleepers may well have been involved.
It might not be outlandish, but is it true? Do we have sufficient evidence to claim this with confidence?
Honestly, I don’t know. Perhaps the drones lack sapience after all, or there might be other reasons.
If they chose not to act, they cannot complain when others choose differently.
I think Sleepers firing on capsuleer vessels might be considered a form of acting
It is very much Sleeper aggression.
They’ve been doing it from the second we arrived, before we had a chance to communicate or engage.
Do you know how many capsuleer ships were destroyed in the first six months after the wormholes opened? Because I’m quite willing to be at it’s at least 20% of all ships destroyed by Sleepers in the past nine years.
No more evidence than we have that the Drifters are here because of engagements against the Sleepers.
(It’s none. There’s no evidence)
Have you considered that it’s because they are automated machines who posses as much intelligence as my vacuum cleaner?
Body could be any physical structure as long as it can store and run your memories reliably. Mind is an emergent property of the wetware, or possibly hardware, that runs our memories. Spirit…
No matter how advanced machines you make, they will never have a body nor a spirit.
A body could be something other than biological and still be a body.
I’ve already voiced my concerns about the notion of spirit.
I wasn’t really aiming that at the Sleepers. If I can say one good thing about them it’s that they haven’t complained once.
I believed I covered that with:
That said, sometimes I suspect my vacuum cleaner is plotting to kill me. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve entered my quarters and tripped over the damn thing because it refused to put itself away and parked itself just inside the doorway!
You’re all going wildly on-topic in an off-topic thread.
Good job?
No, that’s not a body. It’s a machine, not a part of nature. It’s not cells and tissue nor is it a product of years of evolution. Even articifial bodies are still made based on this, they are manipulated cells, but still cells. Circuits have nothing to do with that.
I must say that having hair really suits you Ms. North
Okay, so, have to step in for a second. Respectfully, ma’am, that’s not quite true.
Drifter Hives are absolutely full of Sleeper structures and drones.
The Lancers that aid the Drifters, and communicate with them at least enough to call for help, have more than a little in common with the more common Sleeper drones we see.
Sleeper technology can, if I’m not mistaken, be salvaged pretty routinely from Drifter ships.
I’m sure if you give me a while I could come up with a bit more. All of this makes it more likely that the Drifters are, essentially, a Sleeper military task force.
“Evidence” being anything that makes it more likely that a thing is true, we’ve got a good bit of it. What we don’t have is proof.
And, even if we had it, I doubt people would actually pull out of W-space, so, our conflict with the Drifters is pretty much locked in if that’s the way of it.
We essentially are machines. The fact that we’re a product of billions of years , guided by natural selection, doesn’t make our bodies any less machines. The main difference between what we consider machines and our bodies is that machines are typically simpler and, often, special purpose. I can’t see why a machine could not be an adequate substitute for a biological body if it’s sufficiently advanced.
How dare you insult Mother Nature like that. Life is sacred. We can manipulate it. But life itself is not something that is crafted.
There is a huge diffrence between something that evolved and something that is designed. How can you even compare the two?
Ah, Miss Jenneth!
Going a very long way back in the thread here…
Yes, I am aware of these. The Redoubt, Barbican, Conflux, Sentinel, and Vidette are… special cases. I almost don’t consider them to be “wormhole systems” in the typical sense. The presence of Sleepers there is certainly unusual. It actually lends strength to my opinion that the Drifter’s motivations towards the Sleepers are not wholly friendly.
Assuming (as I do) that the Sleepers really are automated, and that the Drifters in “normal” wormhole space (Arithmos Tyrannos) are hiding themselves from the Sleepers (as they appear to do), I suggest that the Drifters are attempting to gain control of the Sleeper’s programming for their own ends.
The Lancers would certainly suggest they’re doing something to the Sleepers, as the Lancer is unlike any other Sleeper both in appearance and behaviour. The main similarity appears to be build material, which itself is different to that of the Drifter’s ships.
More difficult to explain, admittedly, but perhaps the Drifters themselves have stolen this technology in much the same way we do.
As previously explained, I would very much disagree with this. If nothing else, their defensive and offensive technology is completely different.
It doesn’t. It belongs to CONCORD. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have to pay them to put our name on it. Just like everywhere else in null. As for…
They have built facilities we’ve torn down. Amusingly, none of their ECs was older than our… 4th? 5th Keepstar? So if you’re measuring by the ‘torn down facilities’… yeah, no, their claim doesn’t predate ours, while we pretty clearly predate them.
Yes, and a Warrior II looks different than Mizhara. As someone who did spend years in J-space, you’re wrong. The Sleeper megastructures, which are clearly not military in nature, bear significant resemblance to ‘Drifter-only’ megastructures that are. That difference, that the Hives are clearly some sort of military staging area, more than accounts for the visual differences.
In addition, comparison of the technology recovered from Sleeper husks and Lancer/Seeker husks shows them to be very clearly the same technological base. And as Aria’s said, we see more direct evidence of this with the Sleepers themselves being present in the Hives. Which you oh-so-conveniently label as ‘not normal’.
So, what, should we consider capsuleers in j-space to be ‘not human’ because we don’t see any titans in there? Clearly, all regions of human -controlled space have titans, even if they’re restricted to the Navies. But no titans in j-space. So I guess we can say those pods in j-space aren’t human pods, they’re something else. Because we don’t see any direct connection between those pods and titans.
As for this idiocy…
By that measure the Amarr weren’t people, either. Struck first, with no communication… and remember, the Drifters have communicated with us. They continue to communicate with us. They just don’t do it in ways you like. First, they used Tukoss as a puppet—but that was, after all, clearly communication. And no, the Sleepers were not ‘doing it from the second we arrived, before we had a chance to communicate or engage’. The first explorers into Anoikis had plenty of chance to communicate before the Sleepers reached weapon range.
The communication those noble, peace-loving humans opted for was ‘blow crap up and devour the corpses’. If I was them, I would’ve said ‘screw talking’, too. Frankly, I don’t understand why they haven’t begun a massive purge of Anoikis, and I wouldn’t mind it if they did.
You say this, and then immediately after quote Aria pointing out that hey, we’re seeing the same materials in Sleepers and in Drifter ships… which you then attribute to the Drifters doing to the Sleepers the same crap we do to them. Or, maybe, just maybe… you’re wrong.
An Acolyte I uses lasers, and like all light drones, relies on speed and shields as much, if not more, than armor, for its defense. An Armageddon will often use neuts, smartbombs, and missiles, and relies on its armor. They must not belong to the same group, right?
Your claims that the technology is ‘completely different’ ignores things like how both deal equal parts Electromagnetic, Kinetic, Explosive, and Thermal damage, where damned near nothing else in New Eden does that. Gee, you think maybe the differences are easily explained by iterative development and platform size?
At most, that’s countervailing evidence, ma’am, but I’m not sure it’s even that. The Drifters’ defensive and offensive technology being so different would make total sense if they’re new, while the Sleeper drones are ancient. Given a few thousand years of even pretty idle R&D, you wouldn’t expect everything to come out looking just the same, right?
There’s some strangeness, there, though-- they do seem more different to me than just that. I’m not saying it’s a settled issue.
I don’t think we have anything clear enough to rule out either possibility.
As if CONCORD actually owns that space. They just use their regulatory power to draw money out of you. It’s the ‘paperwork’ you are paying for.
As for facilities. I highly doubt that your Keepstars were the first structures ever built in Delve. However my main point is that what difference is there between shooting someone else in K-space and J-space? It’s all done for the same purpose.
I mean… they’re both circular? Apart from that they look nothing alike.
I actually never implied anything else. I agree that the Lancers and the Seekers are based on Sleeper technology.
It isn’t normal. It’s unique to those systems.
What an immensely fallacious pile of crap.
I wasn’t talking about the Drifters.
Shame they never got a response then isn’t it. Oh wait, they did. They got shot at.
The “same materials” are Sleeper databanks. There’s absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Drifters somehow produced these themselves rather than stealing them from the Sleepers.
Different propulsion systems, different build materials, different energy use, Drifters have two layers of shielding, Sleepers have none, totally different aesthetic design, no apparent cooperation between them apart from inside the Drifter controlled wormholes, I could go on.
Simply, until I see some proof that these aren’t separate groups, I’m not going to believe they are the same.
Right. It’s unique to 100% of their military installations that we’ve seen. Go to a civilian colony, how many boarding pods for armored assault do you see? But armored assault boarding pods are perfectly normal things, they’re just perfectly normal things that don’t get left all over the damned place.
Frankly, there isn’t enough data to make any kind of authoritative statement about what’s ‘normal’ in regions of space where us even having access is demonstrably new and unusual. 9 years out of 15 billion, you know? Any claims of ‘this isn’t normal’ in there is as fallacious as my intentionally ridiculous comparison with titans.
As for not getting a response… if you came to Delve, getting shot is about the only response you’d get here, too.
I certainly don’t mean to insult Mother Nature. Have you considered that, even if we created an artificial body using a machine, it would still be a product of nature due to the simple fact that we are natural ourselves? We inhabit a material universe and everything within it natural as a consequence. We can’t escape the nature that we are embedded in and it would require something from outside the universe, acting under other laws, to be truly unnatural.
I consider it a testament to nature that we could have evolved to such a level; to possibly create a mechanical, non biological body. How do we know that this isn’t simply a possible path of evolution?
There is a huge diffrence between something that evolved and something that is designed. How can you even compare the two?
It seems to be apt enough. Nature being the great, albeit blind, designer.