I was about to say. I mean, come on. Ms Priano was attempting to flat out lie about her affiliations, and in my opinion she had everything coming because of that.
Look. I consider myself a warrior. I think others here do also. And more then other Minmatar, in our lifestyle one learns to speak directly, forcefully, and proudly. That is not hostility, that is simply how we learned to behave. It’s considered sincere, and a sign of respect to act as if one is so close to another that no formal boundaries are necessary.
It does not mean that I hate you, and I do not necessarily seek to convert you. We express ourselves differently, and we have differences of opinion, and those are perfectly fine to have.
The problem comes when you effectively shut your mind to anything that doesn’t align with your worldview. Ms.Ramijozana and I have been very courteous and taken our time to write very long, detailed articles to try and explain why we feel the way we do about you, and you respond with an attitude that I, frankly, find belittling.
So both of us have penned essay-length posts to try and explain ourselves, go out of our way to try and make our intentions clear and try and help you understand that we really do not hate you and we do want to have an open discussion with you, and at the end of it all you come out with that stereotyping attitude.
“Oh you just think the Amarr are evil and if I disagree I must be poisoned”
What?
We never said that. Yeah, I think it, though frankly not because you serve the Amarr. It is because the way you justify your arguments at times reeks of parroting the opinions of your betters. When you reach a dead end in your arguments, you stop delivering well thought out responses and revert to plainly false statements as quoted above. Simply, it seems, to try and cut things off.
And that is what I mean when I say it feels like you go out of your way to shut your mind to everything we say. No matter how hard we try to seem reasonable, in the end you still deliver the written equivalent of a door slam in our face.
You do not have to agree with us, but you could offer us a bit more respect then to cast us as faceless Minmatar stereotypes that would seem excessive in an Amarr propaganda vid, all full of hate and frothing at the mouth to kill the dirty slavers and nothing else.
We are still Humans, you know. There is more to us then that. Plenty has been said of that in this very thread.
Why can’t you take our feedback for what it is, and either make changes or don’t, but respect the source either way?
Agreeing to disagree is a perfectly valid response, as is hearing one out and, at the end, still keeping to one’s own convictions, but respecting the other side for theirs.
I know you do. It shows, Isha. And, respectfully to Melisma, it shows from her, too.
In that original “calling me out,” as she said above, she called me a lost cause (and indicates above that she’s softened that position a little, which is nice). But she didn’t back even a little off her assertion that thoughts and perceptions grounded in my lived, experienced reality …
… are just denial. At that rate you’d probably be justified checking my head for TCMC’s if I turn up. Her subsequent statement that of course she doesn’t see the Amarr as evil can be taken as a concession or a smoke screen-- I don’t see the Sani Sabik as literally “evil” per se, either (partly because I don’t believe in “evil” as a cosmic thing, and that seems to be a perception I share with Melisma), but that doesn’t make them acceptable.
As for your remarks to Ms. Priano, the person you were confronting is first and foremost an administrator, scientist, and researcher. Collaborative stuff’s more her thing; she’s a puzzle-solver and explorer, and her work’s been unfailingly of high quality and widely shared. She’s worked with people from every corner of the cluster, including your fellow Matari fighters and even the Angel Cartel. She was instrumental in stopping the Kyonoke plague outbreak last year.
Frankly, to the degree this is even possible for any of us, she’s a hero. And at this point I’m pretty sure she’s given up on trying to talk to you. Nice work. And to the extent that you were simply echoing a certain lower court?
The fact that a judge says it (unfortunately) doesn’t actually make it a reasonable assertion. Judges are just human beings trusted with a certain role. You hope that trust is justified, but sometimes …
There are valid reasons why the Federation would refuse ARC’s suit. The reasons you and that court cited really aren’t among them (and as Arrendis noted could have some scary implications if the higher courts adopted similar reasoning), but if we boil them down a little we can get a valid reason filtered out: “national security.” If we run into that, probably we’re pretty much done. But we haven’t, yet, so, we might as well keep at it until we get a better, clearer answer.
The approving noises being made by the Gallente who spoke up there might suggest to you, Isha: we’re not wrong. It doesn’t mean we’ll win, but, the real trump card the Federation has available isn’t, “you’re the enemy.”
It’s, “there’s something more important at stake.”
That’s also probably the real answer for why nobody else has coughed up their data, either. Any data passed to ARC basically enters the public domain as an immediate consequence; it’d be like submitting confidential material to a crowdsourcing program for analysis.
But the Federation’s the one most likely to actually tell us that.
So … I kind of feel like I ought to address this. It’s a worthy thing to do, Melisma, and I really think you should. But, I’m probably better suited to act like sort of a mediator in that, than actually represent the Amarr. I’ve only lived here a couple years, you understand, and my religious, cultural, and philosophical outlooks are all REALLY alien from an Amarrian point of view.
Better people to approach to discuss the Amarrian perspective on this world might be Samira Kernher (orthodox, intense, passionate-- but, a little unusually, not unsympathetic to Matari concerns) and Garion Avarr (who I really hope won’t object to me suggesting him).
Their perspectives aren’t at all the same, but you might get a decent sense of things from talking to both. And, importantly, I expect neither will mind talking to you.
I don’t mind at all, Deitra. I didn’t mention the Directrix mostly because, well, obvious bias (I’m her retainer-- literally a servant) and also she’s been pretty busy.
I’m kind of astonished to see you mention Lord Vaari. But that’s also a little intriguing; maybe I should talk with him more.
The only thing I can say is you can’t expect exact answers from most (aside from Samira who is generally specific). Though do you get exact answers from anyone consistantly? Prolly not myself, nor Arrendis, nor Mizharas, nor anyone it seems.
To be fair, Deitra, when asked exact questions, Aria doesn’t give exact answers, either, preferring to see the question as something that has to be made more complex than it is.
Sparring, yes. Healthy debate, yes. Attacks? When you see attacks in what’s meant to be a civil discussion, that’s when you know it’s gotten personal; and there’s a huge difference between civil debate and personal attacks.
I’ve attacked people here before, certainly. Probably everyone has. The reason it’s a sticking point for me right now is because here, in this line of discussion, I have done nothing worthy of being attacked. Indeed, I made an offer to you that I don’t make to everyone.
When are you going to acknowledge that you attacked me in response to an open, genuine offer from me?
There are three things that made it not an attack:
You asked for evidence of times when you have been dismissive of pro-Matari arguments. You asked. Had you not made that request, I would not have said anything along those lines at all.
In responding, I made the conscious decision to not link directly to quotes, as I thought that seeing a long list of quotes you made to this end might feel more off-putting to you.
Everything that Arrendis said about intent, which is 100% correct and I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I don’t think you’re brainwashed. Brainwashing usually implies an element of forced consent.
What suspicions?
Here are my precise, exact intentions:
*To give you a solid understanding of Matari culture and Matari motivations, which you expressly do not have yet, and which I think will help you interpret the various measures that Matari take against Amarr and perhaps provide insight into why we “hate” them so much.
*To potentially learn something from you, as one who has chosen to live among the Amarr; perhaps, for example, why the Amarr think they’re justified in their historical and current treatment of us.
That’s all.
I don’t think I could win you away from their side. And I’m not inclined to waste my time on things that I think are impossible.
But I do think that you might be open to integrating some of the more basic Matari viewpoints into your arguments, whether for or against us; at the very least, I think I could probably get you to stop making such sweepingly untrue statements as “Amarr are so obviously evil.”
My sight might also be clouded. I’m new to this. But you are in a position to provide me with the clarity that you think I need, just as I think I can help you see more clearly.
Let’s do a thought exercise:
Make sense yet?
Again what Arrendis said, but let me add that this visit probably would not entail my taking you around Matar to show you how SUPER EVIL AMARR IS!!!11. It would entail your speaking with Matari in person, non-capsuleers, watching them go about their daily lives, observing the ways in which Amarrian slavery and conquest still affect them. You would be free to arrive at your own conclusions about whether the Amarr are right or wrong. ■■■■, maybe the visit will even wind up convincing you that Amarr is the way to go. But at least you’d make that decision from a more informed stance.
And like I tried to say before, I do think that there’s the possibility of a friendship here. Maybe we could talk about things that have nothing to do with our political stances and ideals. Maybe we’d just hang out and have a few drinks. That’s possible too.
Indeed, what I said was that
and if you want that, it’s on you to make it happen.
(If you haven’t yet. I haven’t gotten out of bed yet, so maybe I missed it.)
No one is stopping you from double-checking anything. In fact, in my last response, I told you flat out that you don’t know anything about me.
So ask me whatever you want. Ask me about where I’m from/where you’d be going (Mikramurka). Ask about my corporation, my university, how I treat my crew, whatever you like. And you can double-check that with whatever sources you like. And when you’re on Matar, or at Rens or anywhere else in our space that you venture to, you can double-check any of that as well. Your only limit is how much legwork you’re willing to do.
(Everything in this response was perfect. Ms. Vuld, I owe you a round.)
This is an observable habit, Ms. Jenneth, and it’s exactly what I want to address. It’s my intention, if you will. To give you a better foundation of what Matari are, so that you don’t fall back on these stereotypes and assumptions.
See, I don’t believe that Amarr, or their sympathizers, are evil. I believe that slavery is evil. And I believe that the practice of slavery reflects poorly on those who support it. But it’s too much of a leap to do this “Slavery is evil = People who support slavery are evil” thing. I think there are nuances here;
And I think that maybe you experienced something in Amarr, or maybe their explanations won you over, and that’s why I think a visit would have value.
They are inadequately informed, and that is what I want to address.
Ms. Kernher appears to be even more attached to Amarr than you are, and I know next to nothing about Mr. Avarr. If either of them are interested in talking with me personally, then I would certainly welcome it, but I’m not under the impression that they would.
Far from it. In fact, I was thinking of mentioning that I am interested in learning more of the Minmtar point of view, so since Ms. Ramijozana mentioned being interested in understanding the Amarr point of view, I would be happy to meet her to talk at some neutral location.
Actually, everyone in this thread meeting for drinks at a neutral location doesn’t sound half bad. As Ms. Ramijozana says, understanding each other is the beginning of resolving differences.
So, permit me to cut through a lot of the noise here and just ask directly, because it feels like this back and forth is derailing even the off-topic thread.
Are you actually willing to engage people like myself in meaningful discussion without retreating into actions of self-defence? Do you want to try and make something out of this?
If so, it simply cannot end in accusations and defensive posturing every single time, that will get no one anywhere, and just wastes everybody’s time. I speak to you because I had felt, initially, that you where willing to listen.
If one is not willing to listen, there is really no point.
With regards to ms.Priano, I see no reason to further entertain the topic. Ms.Priano, no matter who she is, still stated untruths and even now her and her followers refuse to acknowledge a plain and simple fact.
The rest is all “but but but but but but!” to me. “But she’s a hero!” “But ARC works with other Empires too!” “But they even work with Ushra’khan pilots!” “But she’s also petitioning the State!” “But she’s a scientist!” “But she doesn’t care about the war!”
Yes, okay. Even if all of that is true, does a person’s prior deeds now absolve them of blame for present ones? None of that changes the facts stated in that thread, facts that, while not outright denied any longer (go me?) she and her followers continue to dance around at every single turn.
And considering even I only argued that such loyalties would put them at a disadvantage at most, the lengths ARC’s people will go to to try and really tackle that topic ferociously is just hilarious.
“It is not a good look” was the argument, and everybody related loses their minds as though Ms.Priano and ARC is above any form of criticism and it is simply not permitted to criticize her or her people.
The galaxy only works that way in certain parts of space, and I’m not in any of them.
I’d be game. Then I can claim my free drink from Ramijozana.
