The new tab under Character seems at first glance to be quite clear. You can browse all the Expert Systems and under Mining Barge it lists 29 skills that you get, including Mining Barge III. My understanding is that the only skill alphas are missing in order to fly barges is Mining Barge I. So, that appears to be a yes. In principle.
However, not all the required skills for barges appear to be included eg Industry V is missing. So that appears to be a no. In practice. Unless, Mining Barge III, in this context, comes with all its in-built prequisites? Quite possibly.
Well so far, the expert systems thing seems a bit of a bust. For the most part, you could train those skills in a couple of days (for the explorer ones) and you need to train the core skills anyway so whatâs the point of getting them on a temporary basis.
The only one that (sort of) makes sense is the mining barge one as thereâs quite a number of skills to train. But who wants to pay extra to fly a mining barge?
And for the record, @CCP_Dopamine, @CCP_Rattati, @CCP_Convict, @CCP_Aurora, putting a topic in âslow modeâ doesnât actually encourage thoughtful discussion, it just encourages less discussion⌠here. It encourages more discussion on places like /r/eve, where you guys have less control, and kinda tends to make sure that discussion starts off mildly annoyed at you for âslow modeâ, so the angry and annoyed stuff shows up faster and more visibly for SEO purposes. Itâs why people tend to mock discord admins and twitch mods who try âslow modeâ to control discussion: all it does is get people peeved at you1.
Just a thought, for thoughtful discussion.
A. If you have âMining Barge Iâ, you donât need any of the pre-requisites to use the ship. Thatâs because CCP has, in the past, changed skill pre-reqs, and they have a policy of âif you can fly it, you can fly itâ. For example: [Racial] Cruiser I, at one point, didnât require [Racial] Destroyer III, it only required [Racial] Frigate III. You didnât need to train Destroyersâwhich was one skill, not fourâat all. Some people didnât. Then they split Destroyers into the four [Racial] Destroyers skill, and made it a requirement for [Racial] Cruisers. Nobody lost the ability to fly Cruisers (or anything that required that skill, like Battleships, Dreads, etc)
B. Itâs irrelevant that they have the skill. I have omega accounts that have trained Mining Barge, and when they become alphas, they still have the skill. But they canât use the ship, because alpha clones canât make use of skills that canât be trained by alpha clones2. So they wind up unable to hop into the barge in their hangar. So the question remains: will Alpha Clone ES customers be in a similar position?
First, to not spend those couple of days on training if you find you donât enjoy exploration. Ignore the fact that most of those skills are useful elsewhere. As for the Core 14⌠to give new players an idea of why itâs so important to train those. You know, rather than CCP just admitting those 14 are sort of necessary for everyone, so why the hell donât they just give them to everyone for 0 SP and hide those skills completely? Which would make a lot more sense, letâs face it.
1. It also leads to these sprawling, multi-threaded wall-of-text replies as people actually do attempt to have discussions about multiple facets of the topic, and quickly get more and more annoyed at the stupid âslow modeâ shennanigans.
Maybe include what each level unlocks with the 2 new skills.
e.g.
âAdvanced fleet support skill allowing commanders to increase the size and spread of their fleet formations. Unlocks additional formation scaling options at each level of training.â
How many per level? What skill would I need to coordinate 170 pilots.
âFleet support skill allowing commanders to organize and warp fleets in formation. Unlocks additional formation types at each level of training.â
For years, some players have asked for a Beta/Gamma/Theta/whatever-you-want-to-call-it clone option that is better than Alpha but less costly than Omega⌠given that these Expert Systems are arguably extremely expensive and are not worth it by most measures compared to Omega or testing on Singularity w/ heavy skill injection, Alphas should probably have the privilege of flying Omega-only ships that the Expert Systems would unlock (in this case, barges) for the duration of the Expert Systems being active, thereby making it less not-worthwhile than it currently it. In effect, this third clone state will have been introduced that is $$$-only and of an extremely limited duration. This third state doesnât exactly disenfranchise Omega players by making it available. A credit card warrior who invests heavily in Expert Systems instead of Omega isnât posing a threat to Omega players anyway (theyâd be better off $$$->PLEX->ISK->Injectors if they wanted to flop their wallet around)
On the Singularity note, some players such as myself generate hundreds of skill injectors every two weeks and give them around to newbros for the purpose of them learning new things, mastering the game, and deciding what path they want to pursue before committing and achieving those skills and ship investments âfor realâ on TQ. By the time they have those skills and ships in TQ, they will already possess the mastery to make the most of it based on what they learned and practiced on Sisi. In this regard, Expert Systems are not only unnecessary but are actually less effective then having someone give you injectors to test on Sisi. I generate 400+ every two weeks (and counting) and give them around like candy to my comrades for this purpose, and newbies who donât know me personally could probably get these injectors from corpmates in newbie friendly groups like EVE Uni anyway. Expert Systems systems are too expensive for what they offer relative to the skills unlocked, the limited duration, and the presumed inability to operate skill-unlocked Omega ships for Alphas.
I donât post/comment a lot on discord or on twitch (or on reddit for that matter, where I donât log in to an account, I just read⌠same as on twitter, for that matter⌠the only place I post these days besides here is in youtube comments, in fact ;D), Iâm mostly a lurker in all those places⌠but Iâd tend to agree in general.
However, since I also read (and want to hit the heart button every now and then) a lot on this forum⌠and read more than I post⌠I kinda personally mind this 15 minute timer slow mode thing on posting LESS than I mind the daily heart limit. I havenât been using the forum THAT much this morning but Iâm already at my heart limit and itâs 22 hours till I can like a post again, so⌠yeah, for semi-lurkers like me, that discourages forum participation (including lurking) more than slow mode does (since at least thereâs other topics to go post in⌠I canât hit a like on anything anywhere for 22 hours, and⌠yeah).
I donât know if it actually impacts the number of pilots, just the âsizeâ of the formation, ie: âhow far across can my Sphere be?â BTWâŚ
Level 1 (size/spread)
Sphere (10km)
Plane (10km/1km)
Wall (10km/1km)
Arrow (10km/1km)
Level 2 (size/spread)
Sphere (20km)
Plane (20km/2km)
Wall (20km/2km)
Arrow (20km/2km)
Level 3 (size/spread)
Sphere (30km)
Plane (30km/3km)
Wall (30km/3km)
Arrow (30km/3km)
Level 4 (size/spread)
Sphere (40km)
Plane (40km/4km)
Wall (40km/4km)
Arrow (40km/4km)
Level 5 (size/spread)
Sphere (50km)
Plane (50km/5km)
Wall (50km/5km)
Arrow (50km/5km)
Level 1 - Sphere
Level 2 - Plane
Level 3 - Wall
Level 4 - Arrow
Level 5 - Relative
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I really donât get why CCP has taken steps, again and again, to reduce community involvement and drive people away from the official forums. Every single avenue of player involvement with the rest of the community is an avenue toward customer retentionâtoward keeping someone paying you money, CCP. Youâd think theyâd be trying to maximize that, but⌠Didnât want those bonuses anywayâ˘, I guess?
I largely agree with this. While slowmode is somewhat justifiable, what is REALLY irritating is the inability to edit posts⌠really? Come on, thatâs just dumb. Feel free to keep the slow mode but let us edit posts
Just remember⌠To promote a thoughtful discussion we will be enabling Slow Mode in this thread for a week.
Itâs gonna last a week. Tell me that isnât just flagrant âshut the hell up, all of you, we donât want your feebackâ. Sucks to be them, though. Back in 15.
Instead of Slow Mode, perhaps a better result could be achieved by temporary heavy moderation by ISD/GMs including temp bans for more egregious violators. Many of the previous posters are known for having a very good understanding of the game and gameplay; you would think that CCP would welcome their imput as quickly and hassle free as they could make it.
Making it so editing is not allowed also doesnât make sense. The vast majority of the people making editing changes either do it for simple spelling/grammar corrections or to better explain or clarify their positions. Both are important when communicating across numerous other languages and skill levels. CCP needs to have their Community Relations team either working monitoring threads like this or devising a better way to control them other than Slow Mode.
Let me explain, I have played this game for 10 years, not once have I visited a monument or landmark. That isnât the kind of content that I want. The only kind of content that an art team can provide to me is in support of other content.
For example, the art team worked on citadels. Iâve fought over citadels not because they are worth isk, but because they either represent âhomeâ or I know that I can get a good fight if I poke somebody.
Same thing for FW, someone on the art team made the acceleration gates, the beacon, the little structure in the center, and the ship. However, I fight in FW because I know that there is engaging content to be had through the way the restricted access to gates provides a complex meta.
Again, same thing for ships. I need a ship model, but itâs the complex roles and balancing of ships that make the game enjoyable to me. But for the first 2 years Iâve played this game I didnât even care that much about the model. I played in full âpotatoâ mode.
Basically, a graphical update for the sake of just having one or a graphical update that doesnât support new content that I would enjoy is meaningless to me.
Hereâs an example of a reccomendation targeted at the art team: I need a model for a new mobile deployable for mining. Another team made it so when itâs anchored in lowsec it sends out a broadcast to all the players in the constellation. That way, it entices a fight without obligating someone to sit in a pve ship. Players just have to anchor and hope for a fight, or collect a reward if there isnât one. A player like myself will gladly go to that fight even if the reward is an insubstantial amount of Isk. Thatâs because the reward is the fight itself, brought about by this new mechanic.
Sorry, if you donât have time for a couple of days to train skills in Eve, you are in the wrong game. Most people have lots of skills they donât really use a lot because they changed their focus over time.
On the core 14, itâs not totally obvious, other than fitting, what the benefit is and I donât think new bros are gonna be like âgotta get me some of that.â
As I said, time will tell, but Iâd bet the uptake on these, after the first week or two of trial is going to be approximately zero, at least with this inventory
Iâve played the game for 15 years and Iâve visited a ton of monuments, and been with fleets that have gone out and done this.
Not everybody has to like everything in the game, but to act like the Devs should never put anything in the game that someone else may enjoy even if you donât is pretty selfish.
These types of features arenât crowding out work on other stuff. FW changes are unlikely to require a ton of new art. Balance changes require none. Nor does resource redistribution, lowering barriers for new players or changes to citadel mechanics.
Monuments are cool things to have in a game this old, and they mark important historical events that happened in the game. I want more of them, not fewer, and arguing that this is taking away resources from things youâd prefer be worked on is just not correct.
You are forgetting about opportunity cost. There is an opportunity cost to allocating hours to any project because you could have spent them on another.
Letâs assume that the art team has a lot of soft skills like working together well in groups, managing deadlines, etc but no hard skills related to gameplay changes (coding perhaps). You could always intermix them with a team with the hard skills so that the hard skills slowly become learned. This happens in my industry all the time.
Specifically for coding, changing existing code is often very easy compared to inventing things from scratch. Thatâs how I personally learned to code C#.
So in both a general sense and in a sense specific to this example, working on these features ARE crowding out other features.
Another question: Were monument updates brought about by feedback saying the majority of the playerbase wants them or were they just decided upon by a small group of people?
Just noticed that upon opening the dscan, the system map has flipped both axis. What was once top right is now bottom left, and has been observed over several accounts. As someone who uses dscan constantly and has memorized the positions of all celestials in my home systems, this is more than a bit of an inconvenience. Also, have noticed that the asteroid belt icon on dscan for one of my alts is missing, regardless of overview selection.
This is a false choice. According to CCPâs own numbers, the number of people who ever weigh in on any topic is vanishingly small. Thus, nothing will ever be brought about by feedback from the majority of the playerbase. Everything gets decided by a small group of people, because only a small group of people ever takes the time to give CCP any feedback at all.
I largely agree with this. While slowmode is somewhat justifiable, what is REALLY irritating is the inability to edit posts⌠really? Come on, thatâs just dumb. Feel free to keep the slow mode but let us edit posts 
