TBH over props in general really are a problem. Speed bonus on par to the MWD without the only drawback being an agility hit while it’s running. These things weren’t balanced with this in mind at the time so the best you can do is call it emergent gameplay, but it’s become so meta you may as well shake things up a bit.
Especially since it’s directly tied to effortless isk printing. Hell, I still want to see rat aggro changed such that normal drones are treated like fighters are and prioritized, thought I’d suggest a fairly large buff to their health pools to go along side such a change. But… that’s a whole other topic.
I’ll end saying that they’d be far from the first module to find itself locked to a specific hull type/classification so it’s nothing new. And all the better if it forced a little change in gameplay or ship choice.
It’s literally as simple as removing drone auto aggression. No need to drastically change mechanics, just get rid of the mindless aspect of it.
Either command them to attack or attack the target yourself and they will follow, not the current: warp to site, ■■■■ out your drones, orbit, repeat across other 20 accounts, repeat again.
Auto aggression is used to help counter ECM, esp griffins.
If you nerf 100mn fittings to cruisers, then i hope there is a capital nerf in there too. 100mn’s are on of the few ways to help mitigate fighter’s application. If carrier’s damage didnt apply to damn near everything, it wouldnt be as much of a problem… yet they do, so here we are with lots of oversized prop fits to counter.
The over prop problem existed long before the capital changes that gave us the current incarnation of fighters. And allowing for one broken mechanic in an attempt to help balance another is not good design. They are two separate issues that need to be handled separately, assuming they are both actually a problem.
As far as countering ECM goes that reasoning can only go so far. The suggestion I gave was to remove their auto aggression, not to stop their attack when you lost your target. I suggested that you had to actually issue the initial attack or command, outside of that - no change. The alternative would be to alter npc mechanics to prioritize drones like fighters and give drones a health boost to try and compensate those who do pay attention, but that is far more harsh a system than just asking people to fire a civilian gatling or w/e hotkey they’ve set on the rats they want their drones to shoot at.
For the record, light fighters applying as well as they currently do is by design. Carriers, specifically loaded with light fighters are by design anti-subcapital. The situation you are likely complaining about comes when they are used en masse, at which point the problem applies to literally every weapon system. So here’s an idea the next time you try to take on a carrier, a friend or two in Kitsunes or just Griffins and that big bad carrier wont hurt you anymore. Take on a group of carriers, and well, that’s on you to escalate.
The the over prop “problem” was never really a problem in the past with a proper gang setup (bring rapier/huginn/hyena and a long point like keres/arazu). Even new mods have been added to help with overprop, the grappler, but you use a battleship for that. Otherwise daredevil, vigilant and vindi all have 90% webs which will stop an overprop in its tracks. The reason overprop is so common now is that everyone and their mother has a carrier on stand by. The only way to at least mitigate the damage caused by a lone carrier is with overprop.
I’m not complaining about en`masse carriers. I’m concerned with the fact that the carrier is the best ship in the game for lazy krabs to sit in and counter solo/small gang roaming almost single handedly.
Its poor design to let a single ship apply and alpha almost every sub capital ship in the game. EVE’s risk/reward has always been; if you go to a larger ship, you lose some of your ability to apply to smaller ships. That all got tossed in the trash with capital rebalance. Carriers and Dreads have better lock speed and need less support than battleships do currently. Its better to solo roam in a dreadnought than a marauder due to both insurance costs and survivability.
Using your logic with a carrier (bolded), the next time you run across an overprop fit, bring long webs and point, overprop countered. Done. Over prop is balanced since it can be countered with numerous ships, just like a carrier, right?
No, you’re wrong and don’t understand. Lets use this scenario:
Griffin Vs Battleship (any)
The battleship cannot lock a griffin by the time it throws its first jams out. So it doesn’t matter as i couldn’t even send my drones to attack him directly, as i’ll be jammed. However, i can launch drones into space before the griffin can lock and jam me, which then will cause the drones to instantly attack the griffin as its jams count as aggression. This will either force off, or kill the griffin, leaving me free to continue my attacks. If you remove that function because of PVE reasons, battleships take a nerf (yet another) for no reason other than trying to balance for something that could be solved on the PVE level through rat aggro.
If we give NPC’s more aggro against drones, maybe drone ships need to add small remote reps to their high’s and actually stay near their drones to prevent their death. If this is too hard for the person to do, then they need to use a different ship. PVE existed before drone ships, and i’d still get 30m ticks using a mach with 1400’s (back when i did PVE). It just required you to actively rat.
Battleships have been in a bad place for a very long time with the exception of a select few. So saying caps are in a better place than bb is just stating a fact. Not that capitals are somehow not close to where they should be, just that bb are in a really bad place.
Carriers are anti-subcap which means yes, they should be applying well and take on several times their number in a straight fight if the opposition brings no counter. They are capital ships, you aren’t meant to take them on with 5 random ships and I have little pity for those who do and then die for it. Balancing every ship type against small gang preferences is where everything started going downhill to begin with. You want to argue that the volley is too high we can have that discussion and I may even agree.
I was going to make a point on your counterpoint about the ECM bit but it still comes full circle to the fact that BB are in a horrible place right now and the entire tier needs a complete re balance weapons systems and all. Just like a handful of cruisers shouldn’t hold a candle to a carrier, nor should a few frigates vs a battleship if a reasonable fit existed for them to be able to handle it.
The tittle says VNI nerf please stick to the subject yes the oversized prop mod thing is an issue in the matter but nerfing that hurts some PvP fits on other ships.
So instead we can accept the VNI is too good at pve and tune it down a notch.Why should a navy cruiser do better than a dominix,or Gila?
That’s why I started this topic,and before the"battleships suck and need a buff" when that time comes if it comes at all we don’t know if it’ll put them in the spotlight
The whole thing is you can’t look at a problem by itself without looking at what makes it a problem, or appear to be one. The reason the VNI looks so good is not just because it’s numbers match that of the Ishtar and Domi for damage output, but that it’s cost point for those numbers makes it the obvious choice. Those number may need to be tweaked up and down accordingly but that doesn’t fix what could actually be the problem - that the other hulls just aren’t up to snuff. When you look at the numbers provided by the Domi itself as well as most T1 BB hulls you realize that their damage/application/lock times/etc are most definitely in need of attention as well compared to what’s currently available.
That’s why game balance is so difficult, rarely ever can you just look at one ship unless it’s an outlier of it’s own. Much like the fleets of Ishtars that warranted multiple rounds of nerfs. Nerfs that were not just directed at the Ishtar itself, but the sentry drones that were being used as well.
That is why this discussion has gone from just about VNI’s to over prop as well as drone and rat mechanics. They are all related to the perceived problems around this hull.
no we don’t need more agro against drones, I don’t even fly a vni and I cant launch drones without every frigate in the room auto targeting them and blapping 1 before its scopped back up. (this is all before they attack btw)
if you want to increase agro against the drones than how about we fix the damn agro system first like actually being able to have someone with such high agro that the fleets attack them so theres a tank class like other MMOs and not a bunch of ADHD AIs hopped on Cocaine and enegy drink without their pills. I have tried everything and nothing yells “shoot me” compared to other MMOS, my fits are all designed around 0 drone use when frigates are on the field now, and hear lately the cruisers and bs shooting are even switching to the light drones.
all you would have to do is increase tracking of the NPC’s or increase the sig so they can hit the VNI’s at least in some sites, like the sanctum,haven,forsaken hubs.
the fact that they are a viable ratting ship in high end sites is really silly.
this is true, this is also why ccp hands out some nerfs here and there like the OCT balances which lead to nerfs against all the t1 drone ships for reasons of “this hull is being used too much” and “this ship isn’t being used the way we want it too”
