Voter Apathy - Bitter Pills

csm
high-sec

(Choking Coyote) #82

Words only get you so far. At some point, words do need to backed up by actions.

Like so many others, I have never been under the illusion that the CSM was able to make any decisions about the game in itself but rather served as an advisory board to CCP as to which game mechanics needed their attention and why. What you’re saying however (and I’ve read/heard this from other sources as well) is that CCP will only look at working on certain game mechanics if it fits in their road map, regardless of how many people are complaining that other features are broken and need fixing. If it doesn’t fit in their road map, it simply doesn’t get looked at.

I’m not sure if I need to respect the CSM for carrying on in the hope CCP will eventually start taking them seriously, or if I need to regard them as a bunch of fools for being treated like a bunch of errand boys simply because CCP can’t be bothered getting feedback from players directly.

I’ve got three accounts. All three of them were inactive for the past five years until I decided to return to the game about 2 months ago. During my five year period of inactivity, I got the occasional email reminding me to resub. When Alpha accounts became a thing, my inbox got spammed with reminders to buy Omega time, notifications of PLEX discounts and new ■■■■ skins (deliberate spelling mistake probably censored), etc… Yet NEVER, EVER, EVER did I get an email reminding me to vote in the CSM elections…!

Instead of just “refuting” the fact that the CSM has outlived its usefulness, CCP better start backing up their words with some actions. If not, all I need for next year’s CSM election is the “disband” button.


(Lorelei Ierendi) #83

Let’s hope that @CCP_Guard can get us some new and better mails in time for next year!


(Nephew Ruckus) #84

I agree. Disband button for the CSM next election!!!


(Colinde's) #85

I get a 2 things out of this thread:

  1. CSM and CSM Supporters are unable to take criticism seriously. Why? I don’t know… Entitlement perhaps. perhaps not, i don’t care.
  2. People that criticize the CSM seems frustrated. Why? A feeling of apathy towards a council that doesn’t seem to advice CCP on other issues than Null-balance

Number 1 is really really bad. Honestly… If the council and it’s supporters cant see the many frustrated posts about balance in HS/LS and about the CSM, and take them seriously, they are not their position worthy. If the CSM and their supporters truly represented all players of New Eden, they would at least acknowledge the frustrations many players feel about game balance.
Take the Okt. patch… There are MANY balancing issues about capitals, low-sec, and other mechanics…
Who did the patch benefit the most? Null-sec fleets. Who did the patch nerf the hardest? Solo ECM use and WH rollers. What balancing issues where not even mentioned in the patch? HS/LS…

The patterns are there.
Which brings me to point nr 2:
I see little in the 2018 patch notes that indicate, either the last or the current CSM, making any discussions or changes to make low-sec more accessible to sub-cap roaming and good ol’ low-sec PVP. I don’t see the CSM responding to threads about these things in the forums. I don’t see the CSM even talking about or to people that criticize them to find some common ground. So… I understand those who says “What is the CSM useful for anyway?”
I understand the CSM and its supporters incentive to brush off criticism, but it isn’t helping the community to feel like their words and posts on the forum, matters.
It honestly seems like the CSM isn’t actively engaging the general community enough.

I’m not going to say “goons are bad, M’kay?”. I’m not going to point fingers and say “CSM is totally null sec focused.” They most likely aren’t. But it seems that Null-sec is priority nr. 1 in the CSM to a pretty sizable part of the community. And that part of the community is feeling like they aren’t heard or taken seriously.

I like the idea of the CSM. But I’d also like to have a CSM that is more positive and engaged into issues that concerns the community.

One last thing:

Have you looked at western democracies RL lately? RL politics are supposed to make democratic decisions for the betterment of society long term… Not really a lot of that going around… let’s be honest… Best intentions, bad execution. Fear of “the other party” policies, based on little evidence. Compromises and dismantlement of long-term programs before they take real effect leads to a election cycle focused on short-term gains.
Democracy is fantastic, when you actively and relentlessly fight its shortcomings…
Anyways… Just a little perspective on the “All is good” argument.


(Leora Jomir) #86

I got as far as the bit where you blamed people for not voting. So not very far. It’s none of your business whether people vote or not. Maybe give people something they’re keen to vote for instead of whining. The prevalent view is that CSM is ineffective. I do not know why that is but it’s your task to change that perception, not everyone else’s job to vote because you want them to because you think its important. You might’ve had a chance if you started with something a little more diplomatic than "this is on YOU guys’.


(Adambad) #87

I agree, I have tried to get into null sec. we all know what happens. we make the move then wind up playing in null sec solo. If we do something in a group. Its everyone hit this button, everyone hit that button. Making trillions for the select few. That’s not very fun. well at least for me. Boy I can’t wait to take a week to get a proper ship fitted properly. just to not be able to use it because more button mashers are in systems were I am trying to make a profit. SO in a nutshell all the C.S.M. is just another player trying to get the masses to go to null sec to just push buttons as the fc calls commands. to make trillions wile the individual loses there asses.


(Dracoknight) #88

Basically: Get into a Null-sec alliance or get the heck out.
Truly the sandbox we all wanted.

The lack of cohesion in areas like high sec and low sec might also be in the mindset of smaller gangs/corps and prefer being that way, but EVE is falling more and more toward joining one of the “families” on top or you are basically a non-factor.

Was no better 6 years ago either, as the only ones that know politics is Null- and everyone else is trying to stay the heck away.


(Xenuria) #89

Incorrect. It is in fact the crux of my “business” who is and is not voting. I am running for re-election so it would be preposterous for me to not focus on who is voting, who isn’t and why. Voting isn’t a “job” it’s a responsibility. If you choose not to vote you give up your right to complain when people who others voted for do something that you dislike. This is the stark truth of it. If you don’t like it… vote for somebody who wants to change it.


(Evei Daidoji) #90

Dont know what the CSM does and dont really care.

My vote is worth 100 million isk. Pay me in game and I’ll vote for whoever.

On the subject of ‘If you choose not to vote you give up your right to complain when people who others voted for do something that you dislike’

not quite - if I get to the stage of complaining I ‘stop playing’ - i have before and probably will again, you see its a game. For RL democracy I would agree. For this? - do you have difficulties getting through doors with your head that size?


(Colinde's) #91

If we go to RL politics for a second:
If you don’t vote in RL there are two possibilities

  • You don’t like any of the candidates
  • You are not interested in politics

The point about not voting is putting the blame on the people, rather than the system, isn’t really valid when you take these two things into consideration:

  • There are no way to cast a blank vote to show that you care, but no candidates represent you.
  • It’s a game. Not RL. The amount of engagement in the meta of the game (CSM/Forums) varies hugely from demographic group to demographic group.

The first point is self-explanatory. It puts non-voters into the same boat as people that are dissatisfied with the CSM. Not really something that seems to be fair.

Second point is something that has been discussed a lot.
Because it is a game, and not something that affect your life RL, many people that are not in a coherent group of players, don’t have that much interest in the meta of the game. Most just want to play. Here High-sec and Low-sec are at a disadvantage. High-sec being a ton of solo-ers and small groups. Low coherency, if any at all, outside the Null-sec backed entities. Low-sec has not just a low coherence compared to null, the numbers actually living in low are extremely low, compared to HS and NS. This is due to many things, including balance passes that have upset the balance in Low-sec PVP, making Low-sec extremely dangerous campared to the potential rewards.
Yet a sizable amount of systems are Low-sec. Many, very empty. Others being controlled by people dropping supers and capitals on small PVP roams.
I am drifting off topic here.

Look. The point is that the voter apathy problem is not the solely the voters fault. It is the result of the community as a whole failing to be coherent. Spread of community engagement between Reddit and the Forums.
And a failure from CCPs side to balance things like the CSM to represent the players in a proportionate manner to how demographics are in the game.
That in itself has caused more and more voter-apathy.

Putting blame on the voters alone is not good. It’s in favor of elitist eve players to push that notion, because those players are more often than not, part of a huge power-bloc in the game. Nothing wrong in having CSM members from big coalitions. There is something wrong with it when that tendency basically eliminates almost all other play-styles in the CSM representation.


(Ridley Rohan) #92

I am late to the thread, I know. However, I have an important point to make. This section is called “Council of Stellar Management”. But how many council members are posting here? And while we will never know how many are even just reading, how many post is a good indicator. If this is a player’s first introduction to the CSM, you have to admit, it is VERY apathy inspiring. and that is very far from the fault of the player. And then if you do dig deeper, you find the CSM has no actual teeth even if you do vote for them. So whatever you would like to see happen is at best a die roll, but if you vote, your favorite hand might get to roll the die. If this is the plan to get hi-sec loners to unite and vote…you really need a better one.


(Geo Eclipse Oksaras) #93

The only ones i recall posting are Judge, Steve and Brisc.
The other 7 refrain from posting here, probably only post on reddit, or don’t interact at all, but at least read the forums if that.

https://forums.eveonline.com/groups/CSM will show you which ones are active, or were on the forums.
https://forums.eveonline.com/groups/CSM/activity/posts will show you all the posts they make, which you can clearly see Brisc is the most prominent one, with Steve coming in behind him.


(Xenuria) #94

I agree that most of the CSM isn’t active on the forums but they also don’t have to be. Aryth for example is going to win even if he makes 0 posts. Whoever the top 5 picks are for goons don’t technically need to do anything at all in order to win. Non-goon voter turnout is just so low and disorganized.