Weapons Revamp: (Turrets vs Missile/Drone) vs Ship Bonuses


(Erutpar Ambient) #1

I just wanna start this by saying I think it’s kind of silly, from a realism point of view, that weapon systems have a racial aspect to them. Realistically all races would have come up with most of, if not all, of these systems simultaneously. Also, it’s kind of strange how Gal and Cal share Hybrid weapons, though really it’s more gal-Blaster cal-Rail and then their missile/drone flair has been squelched a lot by Ama and Min ship changes. Anyways, I think this was silly in the first place. Here’s what I think should be done instead…

  1. No more weapon bonuses for T1 hulls.
  2. Separate Turrets, Drones and Missiles into 2 categories:
    Primary weapons - Turrets
    Auxiliary weapons - Missiles & Drones

1.) First of all this gives all T1 ships much greater diversity. I honestly don’t understand the reasoning behind weapon specific bonuses in the first place. Much less having weapon bonuses on every ship in general. Just let the weapons be as strong as their supposed to be. Any enhancement should be Modular or Role specific. i.e.: AF and HAC. Then instead of having “Meta” levels, you can just have Racial versions of each weapon system. i.e.: Gallente Medium Pulse Laser or Amarr Large Artillery Cannon And you can still have “Navy” etc versions too.

Since turrets will no longer be racial, they can cover all races equally as primary weapons. Then we can change the way Drones and Missiles work.

2.) Drones and Missiles will both use a “Launcher”. Small/Medium/Large: 25/50/80 m3. (or maybe separate launchers) Ships will still have Bandwidth to control the number of drones active and drones will stay mostly unchanged.

Missiles: 3 Tiers: Rocket (small 10m3), Missile (medium 20m3), Torpedo (large 40m3). Missiles will require bandwidth to fire. (10/20/40) The maximum number of missiles will fire each cycle. For instance, with 20Mb a small launcher could launch 2 rockets or 1 missile, With 80Mb a Large launcher could fire 8 rockets 4 missiles or 2 torpedoes. Launcher Cycle time/reload time and Missile damage will be significantly increased. (30s cycle, 5ish min reload?) All short range, heavy emphasis on sig for application. Explosions don’t stop arbitrarily in space before expanding…

This divides Missiles and Drones into unique auxiliary roles. Drones would be fairly unchanged: strong consistent dps. Missiles however would fit a new role: High damage alpha strike. You can use it to break through critical shield recharge or you can save it for someone who’s trying to rep bait you. Or with Rockets, a BS would make swiss cheese out of a single frigate. Or with a gang you can alpha individuals. (Sorry high sec miners lol) And honestly, this seems more of what Missiles should be like.

What do yall think?


(Wallyx) #2

Then, why have Races? Is silly, you know. Let unify them in one and only “Capsuleer” race. Also, eliminate all Ships Races, more eliminate all ships and only have 1 per type(1 frig, 1 destro, 1 Cruise, 1 BC, 1BS, 1 Capital, 1 Supercapital). You know is silly to have all those ships with all those strange bonuses to all those different weapon systems…

/sacarms off

Dude, all those weapons were created by those different races and they do not come up with all of them simultaneously. To give you an example, Minmatar were an enslave race by Amarr and they do not have many resources to go to war, so they need to tech with outdated and primitive weaponry. With this in mind, they create those wreck ships, which hold with tape, and perfected to use Projectile turrets.

And I can go on and on with Corps on the different Empires which invest in different tech; probably stolen; of other empires to improve their ships, blablabla.

Is a matter of Lore, Complexity, and diversity. What you propose is a different game and, if done, all ships except one of each type will be used. The same goes for the weapon system.

So, please first learn about EvE Lore and its complexity and diversity.

And about the missiles… This is not an 80’s game where you only can have x amount of missiles in your screen. Is a 3D game, did you think about a 200km target with that idea? How is balance to have 1 missile of 100 damage against a target which is 200km away(No dps)? Or 5m away(Dread DPS)? 30s RoF and 5min Reload? Did you know how much FirePower must have those missiles with those times?

Edit: And when you enter reload, 5 minutes doing nothing while your ships blows up…


(mkint) #3

Looking for redeeming factors to this idea. I don’t think I can really think of any.

There is such a thing as good complexity vs bad complexity. Player skill in EVE relies on knowing the nuances of the complexity of weapon systems. Which ships probably fit which weapons so they’ll probably have a certain range/dps/tracking so you know how to fly to have your best chances of winning.

I suspect OP is still a rookie, hasn’t gotten the hang of how to fly, and still mistakenly believes EVE is a matter of rock/paper/scissors rather than skill. If true, it would explain why the OP put together an idea the would make it literally true, the victor decided more by random chance than skill. I suspect OP buys a ship based on liking what it looks like, thinks that’s more important than performance, thus he’d rather just have every ship perform the same.


(Erutpar Ambient) #4

So you’re saying that Amarr never came up with a bow and arrow, a gun, a missile? They just went from hitting each other with clubs and then invented Lasers and that was it? Honestly…

Oh please, Capsuleer race already has zero implication. You can still fly any ship, use any weapon. All I’m suggesting is that any ship use any weapon. Weapon bonuses currently prevent that. You can easily replace the weapon bonuses with other race specific bonuses. You know, like Shield/Armor/Hull/Speed/Support etc etc.

And what about Gal and Cal, they use the same turret weapons already. Maybe we should just get rid of all gal and cal stuff and make just one of each and call it Callente. (This is literally your argument.)

Missiles are a secondary weapon. So you get like one or two of em. Or if you have a “missile boat” maybe like 4? You still have primary weapons. Currently the state of missiles is just another “Turret” with different mechanics that you can’t balance with turrets. That’s why they came up with “Rapid” missile launchers with a long ass reload time (40s). Why not do like half the total damage in one volley with a long ass refire time?

Look at most space Sci-fi and real life stuff. Missiles are usually fired all at once or one at a time. They’re never used for sustained fire.


(Takari) #5

I mean, they were originally one race and split apart… I’m not sure what you’re getting at other than trying to remove options from the game…


(Wallyx) #6

As said, learn about EvE Lore please. I’ll give you some now.

All actual races come from “Earth” through a WormHole, but this WH close without warning. Then, all colonies were Isolated. So, in the beginning, they ALREADY have the technology of, let’s say, future earth.

The difference comes from how they developed and how their colonies were at the moment of the WH Colapse.

I do not know much about this period, others could tell you, but Amarr were the first to discover Warp Drives, probably this and the vast amounts of energy they have in that moment, they develop their tech that way and that why they come with the Idea of Lazors. Also, a Corporation of the Amarr Empire, Khanid Innovation, are the ones which modify Amarr Ships to use Missiles Systems.

For Gall and Caldari, you already get the answer.

And the reason behind not fire missiles at sustained fire in RL is because missiles BLOWs up things with 1 missile or are use to bombard vast amounts of space. EvE is not like that.

In other words, EvE is not your game if you want Simplicity.

EvE Lore is not Silly, is EvE-Online HISTORY as other games have it.

Also, all ships can use all Turret Weapon Systems, but they are not very good at them.

And I’ll give you a RL example also. Why Aircrafts Carrires do not have Battleships guns?

Edit: Some grammar corrections, sorry =(


(Erutpar Ambient) #7

Ayyyyyy that Daredevil prolly has blasters. Gets hit with arty. Quits EvE
Ayyyyyy that Daredevil prolly has blasters. Gets hit with rails. This is fine.

Tell me, what are the nuances between Rails, Beams and Arties?
I’ll concede blasters vs pulse and autos. The only place your argument holds much water is with Gal ships since they’ll have either the shortest range/highest tracking or the longest range/lowest tracking.
“Oh Noes! That fleet of Rokh’s have BEAMS! What do we do now???”

Let me guess, you play style revolves around Missiles, a Tracking Disruptor and a nano or two.


(Erutpar Ambient) #8

Yeah, that’s my point. Just because Gal and Cal use the same weapons, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist independently. That was the argument I was replying to. Thanks for highlighting that.

And yeah, please explain how allowing every ship use any weapon without a built-in opportunity cost is “removing options.”


(Wallyx) #9

Beams -> Best DPS and Tracking, but Cap hungry and low alpha. Very versatile at all ranges. Damage lock(EM-TH). No time to reaload.
Rails -> Huge range, but medium DPS. OK Tracking and Cap Use. Damage lock but at the worst damage to compensate TH-KIN. 5 sec reloads
Artillery -> Best Alpha Striker but low dps and tracking. No need of cap. Very versatile at Damage application. 10 sec reloads.

Because it will cause to reduce the use of all ships except the best ones.

The same happens with Korea.

Edit -> Learn EvE Lore please, I beg you.


(Erutpar Ambient) #10

I know about the lore. Tell me the part in the lore that explains how Caldari and Gallente were never able to make “Projectile” weapons.

I’m not trying to put XL Turrets on a carrier. I just wanna put Blasters on an Abaddon or Pulse on a Mega without losing all the hull bonuses.


(Wallyx) #11

RL Aircraft Carrier, not an EvE Online Carrier…

Because that tech was obsolete, probably from Earth and decide to spend their resources in something more capable and useful like Missiles for Caldari and Drone Tech for Gallente.

For god sake, the same happened in RL. 2 different countries will develop completely different tech depending on where they live and what resources they have. As an example, a windy country will expend his resources to improve Windmills and one with a lot of rivers will improve Water Mills. But this does not mean that they do not know that tech, is just more useful for them in that moment.

You are not making any sense.


(Erutpar Ambient) #12

This is called, Moving the goal posts. How do these nuances affect your flying? Especially given the fact that you don’t know it’s a ranged weapon anyways before engaging a ship as it is now.

This is a fair enough criticism. However, if what you say about the nuances of ranged weapons holds true, then there seems to be significant enough incentive and utility for each weapon system to experience fair use.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say with this. And yeah, I already know Eve Lore and it has nothing to do with why each race has their own unique weapon system.


(Wallyx) #13

You could know what weapon they are using, they have Graphics.

They are pretty useless without bonuses, they excel with them. Without them, beams will never gonna be use do to Cap Usage. The one which will gonna be use are Artillery, do to Alpha, no cap use, and different damage application.

If you mean with “Korea”? Well, they split for the same reason as Cal and Gal and they exist independently. Political reasons.

Well, you say you know the lore of EvE, but you still refuse to acknowledge it.

As an example, I’ll go for other game, the obvious one, WoW. It has many classes, why? Lore(mainly). With your reasoning here, it should only have 1 with all the abilities. This will kill the game, literally.


(Erutpar Ambient) #14

If a RL Aircraft Carrier had Turrets, it would be a Battleship. But if you take the Cannons off of a Battleship and put a set of Railguns or Beam lasers, would it not still be a Battleship?

Regardless, your comparison was Apples to Oranges. A type of logical fallacy.

Yeah, kind of like how Gallente focus on armor and Caldari on shields? But they both still use hybrid weapons…

Here’s an example: Blunt/Stabbing/Slashing/Ranged Weapons. Name me any post stone-age civilization that invented only one of these types of weapon.

There’s no practical reason for each race to have a unique weapon system.


(Erutpar Ambient) #15

Are you saying a Megathron can’t Brawl with pulse or auto cannons?

OK, how about this then.
What if you trade “Hybrid Turret RoF and Tracking” with a generic “Turret RoF and Tracking”?

Would that solve the problem? Maybe increase the specific roles of each weapon a bit? Like more beam damage/ more rail range/ more arty alpha?


(Krysenth) #16

Give up OP. You clearly dont care, dont understand, or dont have the willingness to understand the reasons behind why certain ships are better fit for certain things. You’re literally asking for everything in the game to be turned into a cookie cutter template. So… yea, why not just have one ship of each class, one weapon entirely of each size ('cause fuck being unique, so no missiles rails or shit like that), and proceed to utterly sodomize the game known as EVE?


(Wallyx) #17

You still do not answer the question why an RL Aircraft Carrier does not fit BS Guns. Was not an example of an Aircraft Carrier fitting them… And is a valid comparison for the point I was making, which you do not understand.

Didn’t you said that you know the EvE Lore? As someone mention, Cal and Gal where one.

They could develop the same “tech”, but completely different. For example, Medieval Sword of Europeans was different from Arabians or Japanese. They fulfill a different role, they were developed in different environments but they are the same tech, Swords. Also, European Knights used to use their Swords, even if they take a Jap one, they won’t use it because they do not know how to. Same goes here, the ships were developed and improve to use those types of weapons. The same as F1 use a specific engine and not a Diesel one or a 747 use Specific Jet Engines and not F14 ones.

And please, give me you an example of 2 completely different civilization which developed the exact same tech. And exact, I mean exact, like the Jap Sword in other civilization/country.

Mega will not be used with Autos or Pulses cause of Damage and Cap usage, respectively. And where this comes from? I miss it…

Then merge all turrets types in one. There is no reason for all those types…


(Quelza) #18

What do I think?

I think it’s silly to bother proposing a complete revamp of ship weapon mechanics on a 14 year-old game. I think it’s silly to try and homogenize ships in a game where training time is such an investment. I think it’s silly to think about redesigning the game around your ideas about “realism” when we have ships that fly like submarines, ships that ricochet gently off solid objects no matter the speed of approach, ship repair services that take a fraction of a second, ships based around the idea of pumping repair nanites all over the surface of their superstructure rather than their shield systems, ships that fly with their off-kilter center of gravity (looking at you, Svipul and Tormentor) and celestial bodies that never move along their orbits.

Sure, every race probably developed numerous weapon technologies over their lifetimes. But different militaries are going to have developed different design philosophies and will choose to outfit their ships to suit a particular strategy, or which makes best use of the resources at their disposal.

For example, the Caldari were at one point part of the Federation, and so it is not surprising that they share some weapon tech. They developed fighters to deal with the slow ships of the Gallente during their civil war. The Gallente responded by developing their drone tech to deal with the fighters. The Caldari developed the first frigates to better deal with the drones. Furthermore, the Gallente outnumber the Caldari and focus on close range brawling. It is not surprising that Caldari design doctrine seems to be based around long-range weapon systems.

It’s a fun thought experiment, but it’s not worth any serious consideration. Just an absolutely wasteful use of developer resources.


(Daichi Yamato) #19

Not going to spend weeks overhauling all the ships and their weapons because one person who’s been around for 5 minutes thinks they are silly and not realistic.


(Kyon Rheyne) #20

Lost interest after this part. Eve has zero realism aspects at its core, or may be it’s actually negative even.