Welcome, to your new CSM!

EVE Information Portal Announcements
65

There are some records of what the CSM does, though they are hardly complete representations of all that goes on between the CSM and CCP.

66

The minutes of the summits have been posted every year. And CCP has records of the weekly meetings, I’m sure.

67

A lack of summits over the past 2 years has been rough. No, we do not post a lot of the meeting minutes and, yes, notes are made and kept. You would do best to ask CCP about that as we are pretty well NDA’d.

I do hope the new folks have a summit this year as it has always felt like a pivotal part of the process.

m

1 Like
68

The “role player” is actually low sec fw as well but besides that the biggest problem is actually the voting system itself go look through the voting data and you will see that the very first vote had less null sec influence, but because of the 10 vote thing all the big blocks get their 2nd’s and 3rd’s 4th’s in as well the whole voting system is badly designed.

This would have been the results if everyone only had 1 vote (Not really because the null sec guys would have split more of their vote’s to make sure that angry gets in so the other null guys would be skating on thin ice)

  1. 5574 “Kazanir”
  2. 4302 “Luke Anninan”
  3. 2521 “Storm Delay”
  4. 2478 “Brisc Rubal”
  5. 1824 “Kenneth Feld”
  6. 1457 “Mark Resurrectus”
  7. 1329 “Jinx De’Caire”
  8. 938 “Arsia Elkin”
  9. 857 “Torvald Uruz”
  10. 731 “Alasker”
  11. 714 “Ithica Hawk”
  12. 685 “Pandoralica”
  13. 579 “Stitch Kaneland”
  14. 563 “Steve Ronuken”
  15. 541 “Phantomite”
  16. 493 “Angry Mustache”

And Right near the end:

Round 34 beginning - 11 candidates remain
28785 votes, 2617 quota
Initial talley:
5931 “Kazanir”
4438 “Luke Anninan”
3063 “Brisc Rubal”
2729 “Storm Delay”
2475 “Arsia Elkin”
2397 “Mark Resurrectus”
2266 “Kenneth Feld”
1633 “Jinx De’Caire”
1443 “Ithica Hawk”
1376 “Pandoralica”
1034 “Angry Mustache”
Actions:
Elected: “Kazanir”
Elected: “Luke Anninan”
Elected: “Brisc Rubal”
Elected: “Storm Delay”
Transfer from “Kazanir”:
Votes: 5931.000000, Factor: 0.558759, Excess: 3314.000000
3164.252571 votes to “Angry Mustache”
51.405834 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
50.288316 votes to Exhausted
24.026640 votes to “Pandoralica”
7.822627 votes to “Kenneth Feld”
7.263868 votes to “Arsia Elkin”
6.146350 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
2.793795 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
Elected: “Angry Mustache”
Transfer from “Luke Anninan”:
Votes: 4438.000000, Factor: 0.410320, Excess: 1821.000000
1461.149392 votes to “Kenneth Feld”
253.167418 votes to Exhausted
34.877197 votes to “Arsia Elkin”
25.439838 votes to “Pandoralica”
21.746958 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
15.181839 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
9.437359 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
Elected: “Kenneth Feld”
Transfer from “Angry Mustache”:
Votes: 4198.252571, Factor: 0.376645, Excess: 1581.252571
1252.044413 votes to “Pandoralica”
193.483847 votes to Exhausted
40.455566 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
35.869840 votes to “Arsia Elkin”
30.175896 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
29.223010 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
Elected: “Pandoralica”
Transfer from “Kenneth Feld”:
Votes: 3734.972018, Factor: 0.299325, Excess: 1117.972018
383.733056 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
259.960811 votes to “Arsia Elkin”
224.323739 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
220.284118 votes to Exhausted
29.670295 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
Elected: “Arsia Elkin”
Transfer from “Brisc Rubal”:
Votes: 3063.000000, Factor: 0.145609, Excess: 446.000000
269.376428 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
124.204375 votes to Exhausted
36.984656 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
15.434541 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
Transfer from “Arsia Elkin”:
Votes: 2812.971715, Factor: 0.069667, Excess: 195.971715
66.152563 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
62.904823 votes to Exhausted
56.629536 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
10.284793 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
Transfer from “Storm Delay”:
Votes: 2729.000000, Factor: 0.041041, Excess: 112.000000
87.744962 votes to “Mark Resurrectus”
19.904727 votes to Exhausted
2.503481 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
1.846830 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
Elected: “Mark Resurrectus”
Transfer from “Pandoralica”:
Votes: 2677.510891, Factor: 0.022600, Excess: 60.510891
32.906859 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
19.091418 votes to Exhausted
8.512614 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
Transfer from “Mark Resurrectus”:
Votes: 2644.153891, Factor: 0.010269, Excess: 27.153891
12.900874 votes to “Ithica Hawk”
11.512184 votes to Exhausted
2.740833 votes to “Jinx De’Caire”
Pre-elimination tally:
2402 “Jinx De’Caire”
1874 “Ithica Hawk”
Elimination: “Ithica Hawk” with 1874.264451 votes

Result:
“Luke Anninan”
“Kenneth Feld”
“Kazanir”
“Storm Delay”
“Arsia Elkin”
“Mark Resurrectus”
“Jinx De’Caire”
“Pandoralica”
“Angry Mustache”
“Brisc Rubal”

Angry goes from last place up super high with 3k extra 2ndary vote’s, he is a good guy and I’m glad he is in but this just shows how the 10 vote system favours the big blocks more as they can get multiple people in.

If they could only get 1 guy in per alliance then there would be more space for the guys that represent solo/small gang better like Ithica, torvald and Stich.

Better solution is just 15-20 man csm if null want’s to “blob” then we need more csm. It’s not too late CCP you can still announce another 10 csm dudes joining and boom everyone would be happy its the logical choice :wink:, even if you call it the CSM B team we cool with that xD.

As much as democratic and fair is important, equal representation is more important.

69

Thanks for the reply. I didn’t think about the NDA stuff (Must be a bit of a minefield at times).

1 Like
70

Gammer-ing the rules will not avail you.
The powers that be prevail until they don’t.

71

You forget this is a game after all, thinking outside the box is always an option.

72

No there wouldn’t. Every time someone floats some version of this, I have to point out, again, that the big alliances can just make themselves into multiple smaller alliances. We already coordinate outside of CCP’s framework. We have no problems doing so. Do you think we’d have any trouble whatsoever setting up the structure needed to deal with ‘1 guy per alliance’? Do you think we’d have any difficulty running 1 guy from Goons, 1 from Init, 1 from LAWN, 1 from TNT, etc etc?

Equal representation? Really?

I have alts in null. I have alts in highsec. I have alts in lowsec. I have alts in j-space. Which section of the game ‘represents’ me? For years, CCP counted most of the nullsec CSMs as highsec players because they had market alts who’d stay logged in in Jita for hours on end.

And that’s before we get into a point Brisc has raised…

Guess where most of the game really is.

Brisc made the claim one week that most characters are in the large alliances, not smaller ones. I was skeptical, so I went to Dotlan and ran the numbers… and depending on where you set the cutoff, he’s right. There’s a bunch of caveats to it, inclusing just how impossible it is to judge the number of people in each group, or how to count the people who never leave the NPC corps (which never purge inactives, after all).

Still, it seems to me that before you can insist on ‘equal representation’, you need to be able to conduct an accurate census to determine what that would look like. Because if you just want ‘representation’ based on where the publicly-accessible numbers say the players are… it winds up looking a lot like this year’s results.

2 Likes
73

It’s more than that thou, by equal representation we want specialist’s in our field to be in CSM not just someone who participates in those activities. That is why I believe eve will be better off with more csm seat’s with more specialist’s able to communicate with CCP. I too have done stuff in null but would you want me representing you? ofc not.

Let’s give a practical example:

Fax their rep power (and self sustain) used to be insane maybe this moment being before they where nerfed, Mark Resurrectus would argue that their self sustaining power was needed in wormhole’s from a Nullsec perspective they would argue differently but there is a missing element here and that is small gang.

From my own perspective we had maybe 20 pilot’s, we where defending our structure we can only field sub cap’s because snuffed out is close enough to drop on us if we use cap’s so we just didn’t have any cap’s. The enemy fleet brings 1 faux(cap injected pre nerf) and all of a sudden our 20 man fleet cannot kill anything and our structure slowly dies, the 2nd time it happend we where pissed and just tipped snuff off which sucked because we where then called snuff pet’s, a thing we did not want to have to resort to.

A small gang specialist would have seen this scenerio and been able to argue on our behalf where as a guy who spends time divided between null high and low would feel that dropping caps on the fax is the way to go and hence no nerf was needed.

74

I believe CCP consults specialists outside the CSM body already. It would be interesting to consider allowing the CSM a say in what specialists to consult but at the end of the day CCP owns and controls.

No-one really represents anyone other then themselves anyway. My play style is not represented because can not be. God love those that try to empathise but it is a thankless imposition.

Look, the system is imperfect but it works. I would not mess with it. Simply state your dissonance. It is enough.

2 Likes
75

Ok, this is gonna get a bit long-winded, but I’m tired, so excuse any rambling, please.

That depends entirely on whether or not you’re able to listen to people who know what they’re talking about, and look past your immediate solution to game out ‘what happens next?’ and ‘how do actual people respond to these new conditions?’

Brisc, for example, makes it a point to listen to feedback, concerns, and suggestions from all over the game. I can’t say that he never lets his own blindspots affect how well he receives that feedback and those concerns and suggestions, but you know, he’s human, and that’s one of the drawbacks of humanity: people act like people.

Arsia, too, listens to concerns from outside the areas she plays in, and takes the time to understand that even out in nullsec, the people playing the game are playing the game CCP makes. And the game CCP’s made in null is a hypercompetitive one where there’s almost no room for ‘this isn’t an exploit, but it’s bad for the game, so let’s not do it’1. That, I think, is what torpedoed Phantomite’s bid: being so aggressively and openly ‘screw nullsec, I hate them for playing the game they’ve been given to play’, especially on Declarations of War.

But that’s only part of it. I want people on the CSM who understand how to get people to do what they want done. I don’t want people on the CSM who’ll be so damned star-struck at ‘OMG, it’s a DEV!’ that they’ll validate whatever stupid idea the devs bring to the CSM. Because that’s a risk. And it’s a HUGE risk.

Every time we get a post-mortem from CSMers about ‘how did you guys stop this stupid move?’ or ‘what happened, why didn’t you stop them from doing something horrible?’ we get the same story: the CSM can be extremely effective in curbing CCP’s poor judgment when they are united. As soon as one fool is willing to approve of the boneheaded idea, it doesn’t matter if the other nine (or thirteen, in the old days) opposed it, and it doesn’t matter how much hard data and how many indisputable facts that opposition had. It only takes one person validating a dev who thinks ‘my idea is the most brilliant thing ever and I have totally predicted all of the after-effects perfectly’ to make sure that dev goes full-speed ahead and dismisses every single concern anyone has.

Just look at the utter idiocy of supercapital construction. CCP went about trying to rein in supercapital proliferation in the most ass-backwards way I’ve ever seen. You’ve got these assets that are large, powerful, and absolutely necessary for holding space. You don’t have supers and titans, you don’t hold space. You don’t have enough, you don’t hold space. That’s just a fact of life in null.

CCP wants to reduce the numbers. Most of us in null think that’s probably a thing that would be good for the game. But you can’t reduce their numbers by just making them stupidly hard to produce. All you do then is choke off industry, and choking off industry means choking off all of the secondary industrial output that relies on that top-level production.

Worse, because the damned things are harder to get, it becomes incredibly important to not lose them. Because you need them. You can’t afford to not have them, remember? So you take fewer risks with them. So they stop blowing up. Congratulations, you haven’t reduced their numbers, you’ve just made their pilots more risk-averse.

And that was easy to predict. It was obvious. But because there was at least one dumbass CSM telling them how great their plans were, they didn’t listen to anyone, on the CSM or on these forums, telling them ‘you need to FIX supers before you can reduce their numbers. You need to make them not necessary for holding space.’

1 voice. 1 voice of validation is all they need. So every last person on the CSM needs to be the kind of person who can game this crap out, and/or is willing to listen to the people who can. We’re still not there, mind you… but insisting on ‘equal representation’ doesn’t help with that. And insisting on places needing to be reserved for, in effect, people who are bad at messaging and can’t get people organized enough to support them? (Because if they could, they’d get elected!)

Yeah, that’s just asking for a flood of the ‘omg it’s a dev! talking to me!’ that’s screwed everyone over so many times in the past.

As another note: People love to blame nullsec for CCP’s stupid-ass moves, but honestly, the people who do the deepest dives into the mechanics, who look at the knock-on effects the most, and who have not only the institutional memory, but also the network of like-minded analyst-nerds to get it right? Most of them are in null. Just because that’s where the organization exists.

Analysts don’t get their predictions right because they’re individually brilliant. They get them right because they’re constantly discussing this crap with other people who are also doing analysis on the same matters, and bringing slightly different perspectives. And for that, you need people. You need networks of people. You need the exact things that high/low-sec would need to have to get more people voted onto the CSM.

So yeah, let’s look at your example:

And I get what you’re saying about the impact that had on small gang scenarios. And yes, for small gang work, the nerf was needed. But that brings us back to the other side of the issue, doesn’t it? That power was needed in wormholes. So either you’ve got an expensive tool that’s OP in small gang, or you’ve got an expensive tool that’s inadequate in j-space.

IF you continue to insist they have to be using the same tool.

And that’s the problem, really: CCP is always looking for the least-effort, one-size-fits-all solution… but they don’t exist. Not really. One-size-fits-all means one-size-fits-badly, pretty much everywhere.

As for this…

Do you have any idea how many null pilots are small-gang devotees? How many of the null CSMs over the years have been absolutely addicted to small-gang work? We don’t do large tidi fights of 3000+ people because they’re fun. They’re not fun. They’re what’s needed to get the job done. Because when the other side’s gonna bring 1400 people, you damned well better bring 1600 of your own.

And no, ‘drop caps on it’ is almost never the correct answer to a single fax, because if you can drop caps on it, assume the other guy’s willing to counter-drop you. Because hey, now there’s caps to kill.

And the other guy might know how to batphone snuff. Or LSH. Or RC. Or any of the groups that have specialized in hunting capitals over the years.

That’s what I mean by ‘people need to be able to game it out’, because anyone with half a brain could see that any answer that tried to make a single type of ship powerful enough to be useful in j-space defense while not OP in k-space… would never work for both sides of the equation. Never. Just like making carriers both an over-the-horizon DPS platform and triage super-reps didn’t work.

1. So, the one big thing out there that at least some of us are willing to say ‘this is HORRIBLE for the game, we refuse to do it’… is renting space out to people. It’s bad for the game. It means small groups don’t have places to go and get started in null without being beholden to their landlords, it means landlords basically sit on their asses and collect ISK for doing nothing, rather than actually having to play the game for their alliance to make money, and it feeds into the never-ending drive toward stagnation in null.

But not running a rental empire means ignoring a potential revenue stream and effectively letting the people who want to come shoot you have an advantage in terms of money-making. And that means giving them an advantage in terms of what they can buy to try to kill you with. So there’s a clear disincentive for anyone in null to not run a rental empire, no matter how bad they are for the game. Still, while most of the big null blocs run them, the Imperium does not, and never will. Because while we don’t have a lot of room to leave free money on the table… some things are just too corrupt, corrosive, and bad for EVE.

7 Likes
76

You make very good point’s, yea I agree that more than 10 would be bad for the game then.

These system buffs that ccp is playing with might be the solution to a lot of those problems.

77

Sad with too many from the same force present in CSM… they got their ones to vote for them, and nothing wrong on that… so null keeps winning all the changes and all will be… the same.

High sec is forgotten, mining will again getting worse with Ken on the lead… My only hope is Arsia!

But its democracy… lets wait and see…nahhhh: the big blocks will tend to get bigger and full acess to information first hand… the small ones will tend to continue small or stop existing… but hey, all is good in new eden…

Do a good job guys, and remember: you guys now represent ALL players… Leave your own agenda and fight for the game and the community…

78

Afternoon Brisc

Perhaps the csm elections should have specific candidates for specific areas

So X2 for fw
X2 for Null
X2 for indy

Etc

Blah blah blah

79

Nullbloc FW-Alt x 2
Nullbloc Indy-Alt x 2

Etc etc.

You can’t really limit in that regard. The blocs will have their way no matter what. The only way to swing different CSM results would be organizing the voters of high, low and WHs towards specific ballots.

80

And how would that not have the exact same outcome? They cant just use alts like that anyway. It 100% doesn’t work like that. They have to do interviews and an established char and let’s not forget they have to actually communicate and have interviews with ccp. It’s not possible to use Alts like that because the person behind the alt needs to actually do stuff.

81

They would still organize their voters and be the voting blocs that decide who gets in. Don’t take ‘alt’ too literally here.

82

I think certain criteria should be met and for 2 delegates from each main area of the game would be good.

X2 for null etc
X2 for fw
X2 for Indy
X2 for Wh
X1 for hs
X1 for ls

Something like that with some criteria that needs to be met then not just anyone can go for it. If people who are passionate and knowledgeable about those areas get in, then all the other bits in between should fall into place.

Currently there is no real criteria so it willl always be nullblob csm and pure populism. People will be able to run for one area to represent and all the bits that intertwine with eachother would be discussed over anyway.

That’s just a rough idea off the top of my head.

84

I see sorry. Yeah i took alt too literally :laughing:

85

That sets a pretty low bar if you think kills mean that much. Iirc i have 0 kills and have never been killed. I do pure indy and i mine i low and sometimes nulll sec. I am that good at it that i have never been killed.